Hutch-SCO
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You tried the wrong kind then lol
Force cockpit view unfair?
- Thread starter Kknorpp001
- Start date
You tried the wrong kind then lol
David O'Reilly
Registered
Referring to the OP question.
In my view cockpit is the best and most immersive experience and when you have the ability to adjust FOV to get it perfect there is nothing better.
There are exceptions such as some cars in some other sims have very poor FOV and cockpit becomes very limiting and claustrophobic.
In single player you can of course do what you want but when it comes to racing online if the host wants to create a hard core realiism and a level playing field then it is totally appropriate to force cockpit view.
If not then the guys who ride nose or roof can have an advantage and thats not fair.
Just my views thats all.
In my view cockpit is the best and most immersive experience and when you have the ability to adjust FOV to get it perfect there is nothing better.
There are exceptions such as some cars in some other sims have very poor FOV and cockpit becomes very limiting and claustrophobic.
In single player you can of course do what you want but when it comes to racing online if the host wants to create a hard core realiism and a level playing field then it is totally appropriate to force cockpit view.
If not then the guys who ride nose or roof can have an advantage and thats not fair.
Just my views thats all.
1959nikos
Registered
Devils advocate
I still dont get it.
I always drive in cockpit. I used to drive at bonnet at rally sims as their cockpits were ugly.
But what advantage can this be? You cannot see anything around you that way.
Even with top view, I always crash. So, whats the point?
I dont feel comfortable with it, if other people do, why limit them to my standards?
hmm, there are many instants in history where something silly became the norm, take motor cars as an example, they were slower than horses at a time...
I still dont get it.
I always drive in cockpit. I used to drive at bonnet at rally sims as their cockpits were ugly.
But what advantage can this be? You cannot see anything around you that way.
Even with top view, I always crash. So, whats the point?
I dont feel comfortable with it, if other people do, why limit them to my standards?
hmm, there are many instants in history where something silly became the norm, take motor cars as an example, they were slower than horses at a time...
Last edited by a moderator:
Lazza
Registered
Generally I think people should be able to use what they're comfortable with.
But...
There is one advantage people using a higher view (like swingman) can have over cockpit/bonnet drivers - a better view over crests and close cars. Some tracks give you blind apexes because they're on a crest, and running a high view can help you line it up. I think. Personally I can't stand any view that isn't bolted to the car because I can't feel what it's doing. But then I'm sure you could tweak one of the on-car cameras to get a higher perspective, too.
Anyway, just adding that.
But...
There is one advantage people using a higher view (like swingman) can have over cockpit/bonnet drivers - a better view over crests and close cars. Some tracks give you blind apexes because they're on a crest, and running a high view can help you line it up. I think. Personally I can't stand any view that isn't bolted to the car because I can't feel what it's doing. But then I'm sure you could tweak one of the on-car cameras to get a higher perspective, too.
Anyway, just adding that.
Marvin Morgan
Registered
Again, I say it's what the race organizer put in place so it's his choice. I can see a couple guys going to a 100 meter dash race and complaining that they should put hurdles in it because they're better hurdlers than they are sprint guys. If you're not comfortable in a 100 meter dash race don't enter. And if you're not comfortable in a "X"assist off/"Y" Camera view only then don't enter.
brabham67
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mclaren777
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I agree with this.
Butch Nackley
Registered
This really should have been a poll.
I have read the thread, but not sure where it stands as far as numbers go.
Anyway, I think the server admin should decide the settings. There will be all sorts of servers running. Some with strick settings, some with more relaxed. It shows in the window what the rules are. You'll likely find one that suits your needs.
I play only in cockpit and always have. I have raced in leagues with cockpit view only.
I have also been in some leagues without that feature enforced. I had fun regardless and didn't care really who was using which setting. Not that it really matters, I am only sharing my feelings about it from my personal perspective.
I fully support both admin of open public servers and those of leagues to decide which settings they want.
I fully support people's chioice to decide which servers (or leagues) they want to join based on those settings.
I have read the thread, but not sure where it stands as far as numbers go.
Anyway, I think the server admin should decide the settings. There will be all sorts of servers running. Some with strick settings, some with more relaxed. It shows in the window what the rules are. You'll likely find one that suits your needs.
I play only in cockpit and always have. I have raced in leagues with cockpit view only.
I have also been in some leagues without that feature enforced. I had fun regardless and didn't care really who was using which setting. Not that it really matters, I am only sharing my feelings about it from my personal perspective.
I fully support both admin of open public servers and those of leagues to decide which settings they want.
I fully support people's chioice to decide which servers (or leagues) they want to join based on those settings.
Minibull
Member
Great. So the guy you are quoting doesn't want to be forced into a box that is wrong for them. Completely understandable.
Good thing there are many MANY boxes (servers) to choose from
Still sitting here with no idea as to how this is even a debate topic.
Might as well start a thread in regards to servers running all cars. The Clio doesn't suit me and they shouldn't force me to drive it on their servers, I want to drive the Formula ISI instead...
Gearjammer
Registered
heheh, good point Minibull
Guy Moulton
Registered
It's been proven time and again at various places that anything but cockpit provides an advantage. I read/hear a lot how guys are half a second slower in cockpit view. BUT if everyone has the same disadvantage, then by the thread topic itself, it IS NOT unfair. If everyone has the same disadvantage, then it is fair.
But what gets me, is lots of leagues think that no assists is "as real as it gets", but not forcing cockpit is OK You want real as it gets? Do some homework and figure out what aids the real series lets drivers use and use those aids in your series AND force cockpit. Everyone is on the same footing, everyone is equal, it is fair.
But what gets me, is lots of leagues think that no assists is "as real as it gets", but not forcing cockpit is OK
You want real as it gets? Do some homework and figure out what aids the real series lets drivers use and use those aids in your series AND force cockpit. Everyone is on the same footing, everyone is equal, it is fair.
Diablo
Registered
Sorry I haven´t read this whole thread, but I guess I don´t have to, since it is a discussion that´s reopened every so often on different forums. I know, I shouldn´t, but here is my point of view.
I am an admin in a small community, which by definition only runs simulations of any kind (also flight sims at times) from cockpit. We do it because it is the most realistic perspective, because it resembles most closely what a driver/pilot in the real world has to deal with. Is it flawed? Of course it is, since it is not the real world, it is a simulation. So there are times when I feel, I need to upgrade from my single "tiny" 19" 5:4 to a triple screen setup with say 24" screens. Oh and how I wish, I had a more realistic way of looking around, other than buttons. TrackIR has some major flaws of its own, since it forces your brain to do counter intuitive thinking, namely turning your head right so the view in game shifts to the right, but you have to turn your eyes into the opposite direction to actually see the perspective change, because you need to look at your stationary monitor. That makes me throw up just thinking about it, this can´t be good for ones brain. I always remember films which showed people in a VR world with "Cyberhelmets" and stuff, and it was always said, never ever just rip the helmet off, it will fry your brain. In a way TrackIR is a step in the wrong direction there. The only thing, I can think of, that would give me the most realistic means of looking around, is a proper "Cyperhelmet" with high resolution displays for each eye and high resolution head tracking. But the options are very slim in that area and vastly expensive. And still there would be a flaw, the perspective wouldn´t change with my eyes looking left/right/up/down, which is what comes most natural.
But, I have yet to see someone being quicker than me, only because they have more screen real estate or TrackIR or whatnot. If one is willing to take their time and practice hard, one can find other means to get relevant racing information. Just like a blind man develops better hearing. Oh, and someone mentioned spotters, good point, just for the wrong team, since spotters exist, because drivers in the real world are in fact very limited in their movement and view as well, especially since the advent of H.A.N.S.; I remember a driver saying that he could not see the other one hitting him just because he could´t turn his head and the other guy was in the blind spot of his mirror. Had he seen him, he could at least have given the room for both of them to survive. So, not having spotters is no argument against cockpit view, but is one for having spotters implemented.
But still, I will always choose cockpit view over any other option, it simply is the least flawed. I would like to see more simulations to do away with even having those other options, those are for arcade games. I like iRacing in that regard, there simply is no option, there is cockpit perspective, period. But I can see that from a commercial point of view one needs to provide options, otherwise the very small customer base would become even smaller.
So, why do we force our server visitors into using cockpit view? To level the playing field. Cockpit is the most realistic but also the most difficult view to handle. Giving anybody else the option to not use it, would clearly put him at a massive advantage, because they would not have blind spots or an obfuscated view onto the road ahead etc. And there are more or less only advantages to all the other options. Of cource we tried other viewing options just to put a number on them, and it is easily half a second on a quick lap, because you can place the car perfectly everytime.
I´d like to see a penalty to those viewing options, like a realistic calculation of the center of gravity for the vehicle, then I will enable the chase cam option right away, just to see if you can actually make the car roll over in the corners.
But seriously, I would really like to see that CG calculation implemented, because as long as there is the option to adjust your seating position, there will also be the ones that just crank it up to the top most and most forward position, giving them an advantage as well. The reason for real world drivers being seated way low and further back is optimization of the CG. Plus, in a real world race car, you will hardly find an adjustable seat. Another plus for iRacing, sorry.
I will stop here, I could go on and on, I guess. Now go and hate me.
Cheers
Marcus
I am an admin in a small community, which by definition only runs simulations of any kind (also flight sims at times) from cockpit. We do it because it is the most realistic perspective, because it resembles most closely what a driver/pilot in the real world has to deal with. Is it flawed? Of course it is, since it is not the real world, it is a simulation. So there are times when I feel, I need to upgrade from my single "tiny" 19" 5:4 to a triple screen setup with say 24" screens. Oh and how I wish, I had a more realistic way of looking around, other than buttons. TrackIR has some major flaws of its own, since it forces your brain to do counter intuitive thinking, namely turning your head right so the view in game shifts to the right, but you have to turn your eyes into the opposite direction to actually see the perspective change, because you need to look at your stationary monitor. That makes me throw up just thinking about it, this can´t be good for ones brain. I always remember films which showed people in a VR world with "Cyberhelmets" and stuff, and it was always said, never ever just rip the helmet off, it will fry your brain. In a way TrackIR is a step in the wrong direction there. The only thing, I can think of, that would give me the most realistic means of looking around, is a proper "Cyperhelmet" with high resolution displays for each eye and high resolution head tracking. But the options are very slim in that area and vastly expensive. And still there would be a flaw, the perspective wouldn´t change with my eyes looking left/right/up/down, which is what comes most natural.
But, I have yet to see someone being quicker than me, only because they have more screen real estate or TrackIR or whatnot. If one is willing to take their time and practice hard, one can find other means to get relevant racing information. Just like a blind man develops better hearing. Oh, and someone mentioned spotters, good point, just for the wrong team, since spotters exist, because drivers in the real world are in fact very limited in their movement and view as well, especially since the advent of H.A.N.S.; I remember a driver saying that he could not see the other one hitting him just because he could´t turn his head and the other guy was in the blind spot of his mirror. Had he seen him, he could at least have given the room for both of them to survive. So, not having spotters is no argument against cockpit view, but is one for having spotters implemented.
But still, I will always choose cockpit view over any other option, it simply is the least flawed. I would like to see more simulations to do away with even having those other options, those are for arcade games. I like iRacing in that regard, there simply is no option, there is cockpit perspective, period. But I can see that from a commercial point of view one needs to provide options, otherwise the very small customer base would become even smaller.
So, why do we force our server visitors into using cockpit view? To level the playing field. Cockpit is the most realistic but also the most difficult view to handle. Giving anybody else the option to not use it, would clearly put him at a massive advantage, because they would not have blind spots or an obfuscated view onto the road ahead etc. And there are more or less only advantages to all the other options. Of cource we tried other viewing options just to put a number on them, and it is easily half a second on a quick lap, because you can place the car perfectly everytime.
I´d like to see a penalty to those viewing options, like a realistic calculation of the center of gravity for the vehicle, then I will enable the chase cam option right away, just to see if you can actually make the car roll over in the corners.
But seriously, I would really like to see that CG calculation implemented, because as long as there is the option to adjust your seating position, there will also be the ones that just crank it up to the top most and most forward position, giving them an advantage as well. The reason for real world drivers being seated way low and further back is optimization of the CG. Plus, in a real world race car, you will hardly find an adjustable seat. Another plus for iRacing, sorry.I will stop here, I could go on and on, I guess. Now go and hate me.
Cheers
Marcus
I am dead against "forced " cockpit view purely because there is no guarantee that everyone is using exactly the same pc equipment.
its like saying you are only allowed to race using Nvidia vid cards or intel cpus.
I have no problems with someone using cockpit view if thats what gives them their "realism", same as I have no qualms with someone using bumper view or bonnet view etc etc.
If you think its the best view for you, then use it, but don't try to force it on someone else because then that gives you an unfair advantage.
For the people that say anything other than cockpit view is arcade racing, thats crap. The game developers make the ability to change views because they know that not everyone is the same.
Otherwise they wouldnt give you the option of being able to move you're seating or change you're FOV or even camera position.
I pretty much always use bonnet view, it makes me faster because I practise with it, the same as cockpit view makes someone else faster because they practise with it. The only reason one person becomes faster than the other is because of the practise, not the view.
its like saying you are only allowed to race using Nvidia vid cards or intel cpus.
I have no problems with someone using cockpit view if thats what gives them their "realism", same as I have no qualms with someone using bumper view or bonnet view etc etc.
If you think its the best view for you, then use it, but don't try to force it on someone else because then that gives you an unfair advantage.
For the people that say anything other than cockpit view is arcade racing, thats crap. The game developers make the ability to change views because they know that not everyone is the same.
Otherwise they wouldnt give you the option of being able to move you're seating or change you're FOV or even camera position.
I pretty much always use bonnet view, it makes me faster because I practise with it, the same as cockpit view makes someone else faster because they practise with it. The only reason one person becomes faster than the other is because of the practise, not the view.
Prodigy
Registered
@FatCity
You have your points, but as for your last sentence you can look at it other way around. Image 5 racers on the server using cockpit cam and they are all close with their lap times. Than you come and use bonnet view because it makes you faster, would that be fair?
Like Diablo said above; cockpit is the most realistic but also the most difficult view to handle. That's why people say it's hardcore and other cams are arcade like. You drive your car from cockpit, you're not sitting on the hood.
You have your points, but as for your last sentence you can look at it other way around. Image 5 racers on the server using cockpit cam and they are all close with their lap times. Than you come and use bonnet view because it makes you faster, would that be fair?
Like Diablo said above; cockpit is the most realistic but also the most difficult view to handle. That's why people say it's hardcore and other cams are arcade like. You drive your car from cockpit, you're not sitting on the hood.
I race against people that are way faster than me that use cockpit view, so what does that mean, thats not fair?
I believe that the view makes no difference, its the practise as well as game knowledge that makes people faster.
Unless i use a 3 monitor system, I cannot see how cockpit view gives more realism, the view you get is restricted by the size of youre monitor. A cockpit view through a 24 in monitor would be like driving from the backseat in my humble opinion.
I am not posting here to argue what is or isnt better, I just dont think that the view should be locked one way or another.
But its just my opinion, I,m not forcing you to agree with it.........that would be unfair........wouldn't it
Diablo
Registered
LOL, now you just fish for excuses, seriously, how is forcing the view like forcing the used hardware?! As you can see from my post, I have quite limited hardware with my single 19" 5:4 ratio screen. Yet, I am a strong advocate of cockpit view, because it is the most realistic.
And to a certain extent I can agree with the practice being what makes you faster, but only so far.
Now that I have read the whole thread, there were some mentions of blind corners especially over crests. That is the single best example to prove, that all other views give you an advantage, even bonnet view. Properly seated in a race car cockpit, so you can only see what´s say 50 metres+ in front of the car, you will only see sky and the clouds in it, whereas someone in any other view will actually see where he will be, way before he´s over the crest. Best track to prove it, Infineon/Sonoma Raceway formerly known as Sears Point. I think it is turn 5, that one still gives me the creeps, because from about 50m before actually hitting the apex, you can only see clouds and you really have to know your car and the track like the back of your hand, to still be on the black stuff or at least on the painted curbs, when you are exiting the corner. The other option, go conservative about it, but that makes you slow.
Bonnet view, bumper view, heck any other view, has the advantage of not having a cockpit hindering you from seeing what is directly or at least 5m in front of the car. Maybe the quantification of the advantage is different for the different options, but it is a positive number for all of them.
And guess what, the tracks I like most are bumpy tracks with quite a lot of elevation changes, blind corners, crests etc., because of the very challenge they pose, especially and sometimes only in the cockpit perspective. Those really seperate the men from the boys. Had I allowed any other view on the server, could I ever be certain that I was beaten by a real man or a boy on his magic carpet?
Kind regards,
Marcus
P.S.: Who said, iRacing wouldn´t let you use an H-Pattern? Last time I checked, I could use mine and the gearbox kindly reminded me to actually use the clutch or do proper rev matching with a lovely grinding noise, when I asked why I was still in neutral. If you meant, you can´t use it in a car that doesn´t have an H-Pattern (haven´t checked), well that would really be ridiculous. That wouldn´t be realistic, would it?
Diablo
Registered
There is an easy solution to this entire thing, and that is to omit every driving view other than cockpit view, with the option to turn off visuals for people who have a decent rig and/or actual cockpit. This would cause a **** storm of enormous magnitude I think
Yep, I am strongly for omitting the other viewing options, as well as I am strongly against the second half of your proposal, because it defeats the whole point of cockpit view, actually having a blocked view. Say you have the perfect replica of a real cockpit and you turn of the virtual one, if I got you right, than that area would suddenly be "transparent and show you the part of the road formerly blocked by the dash, doors, pillars etc.
Diablo
Registered
Oh, since I just read another guy claiming triple screen is an advantage. Well, how is it not an advantage in any other "driving" perspective? It certainly enables a wider horizontal field of view in any of them. Maybe it scales best in cockpit view, but that´s no real excuse.
And where do you really want to stop? Anyone having that vital better piece of hardware will have a theoretical advantage. People using 900° or 1080° steering wheels, in my thinking have an advantage over the ones with 220°, 270° wheels. Loadcell brakes or hydraulic brakes give a way better feel, especially for heel'n'toe. Clutch pedals simulating the feel of a real clutch...
Get over it, there will always be the odd guy or gal having it all. But he or she won´t be the quickest, just by owning them. You can´t win by just throwing money around. And believe me, I won´t ever be that guy.
If you take two similarly skilled, vastly experienced drivers, then the one with the better equipment at least theoretically has the advantage. But they have to make actual use of the extra they have got. So, to a certain extent, the people having the money to spend will most likely have an advantage. But I guess there is not much you can do about it, except becoming the one with the money and spending it.
Oh wait, there is an alternative:
To each the same! How´s that for ridicule. I don´t like to be called a Nazi, call me Stalin instead! Or maybe Lenin, but Stalin has such a martial ring to it.
Cheers,
Iossif
And where do you really want to stop? Anyone having that vital better piece of hardware will have a theoretical advantage. People using 900° or 1080° steering wheels, in my thinking have an advantage over the ones with 220°, 270° wheels. Loadcell brakes or hydraulic brakes give a way better feel, especially for heel'n'toe. Clutch pedals simulating the feel of a real clutch...
Get over it, there will always be the odd guy or gal having it all. But he or she won´t be the quickest, just by owning them. You can´t win by just throwing money around. And believe me, I won´t ever be that guy.
If you take two similarly skilled, vastly experienced drivers, then the one with the better equipment at least theoretically has the advantage. But they have to make actual use of the extra they have got. So, to a certain extent, the people having the money to spend will most likely have an advantage. But I guess there is not much you can do about it, except becoming the one with the money and spending it.
Oh wait, there is an alternative:
To each the same! How´s that for ridicule. I don´t like to be called a Nazi, call me Stalin instead! Or maybe Lenin, but Stalin has such a martial ring to it.
Cheers,
Iossif