Completely agree with you about Infineon raceway, turn 3 also has similar problem...and what about mid-ohio turn 5 (maybe...), while on "my" iR Caddy cockpit I can't see NOTHING, no apex, no next corner, or, even worse, turn 10 where you MUST keep it down... But there are tons of other examples...Nordschleife anyone? So, if one is about simulation (and adrenaline pumping), not arcade style videogaming (which I personally enjoy on my son PS3 ) what is the point of using views other than cockpit? For the same reason build a 3 monitor simulation rig with decent wheel and pedals is a MUST. Have you ever seen aircraft pilots practicing their airmanship skills on the simulator viewing from the top of the vertical stabilizer and pushing buttons on a QWERTY keyboard? Me not. Is this not cheap? Yes, of course it is not. But now you can buy 3 good used monitors and an Eyefinity card with less than 400€ (I've spent 300€ last year). So why not? About iR H-Pattern policy: yes, since real Caddy has a sequential shifter you cannot use the G27 h-shifter, then, if you don't want to use autoblip (and have an advantage over people who use autoblip...) you must use the clutch with the paddle shifter, that, for me, is a real pain.
Well, you don´t need the clutch on downshifts with the sequiential gearboxes and autoblip disabled, just stab the throttle the moment you pull the paddle. I always disable all driving aids, also autoclutch, that way you get the real properties of the gearbox. Many seq. gearboxes also have autoblip, even if you disabled it in the options. That is the proper way of going about simulating things, making the the "driving adis" a property of the car and not a global setting in the options. Also, the artificial driving aids, those you set in the options come with a penalty. I like that. The only thing still (or again) bugging me, is you cannot stall the engine, because the sim engages the the clutch automatically at a certain speed. I believe that was different in an earlier version. Oh, and in the real world some nascar drivers only use their clutch to get rolling from a standstill, and they still have h-pattern gearboxes. Have yet to get that into my repository of driving techniques. It works but is a totally different story compared to sequential shifting.
My 2 cents in this somewhat redundant discussion that we have had for what, a decade now? and still unresolved simply because it doesn't need to be resolved. (because its the server admin whom decides and we dont need ISI or anyone else to decide for us) Its too easy and cheap to simply claim realistic-sim-settings-f*cky-yeah! everyone else s*cks! As with anything, different people want different things. some love 100% hardcore, other just want to drive arround in a better-then-arcade-invironment. There are simmers on bussines trips most of the year and the only way to join races is with a laptop and a joypad. There are people with eyesight issues not beeing able to drive in cockpit. I know a guy whom gets motion sickness in cockpit and can only drive in other views. I dont buy the notion that non-cockpit views have advantages either. if anything you have an advantage in the cockpit as you can steer-in much better then the swingman view. And blind corners? realy? a blind corner is still there, you know its there even if you can't see it, so it aint exactly a 'suprise' corner is it? so i seriously doubt swingman makes people faster because they can 'see' blind corners. If you have issues with blind corners it usualy means you need to practise more. One could even argue that having swingman-drivers on the field increases safety, they are able to spot incidents earlyer and might not add to the incident. that benefits everyone. So each his own, we could have the same discussion about other things like damage or if we should have repair-options in cars from the 60's. We keep it fairly open in our league, no forced driving view, only clutch as aid, damage depends on the mod but since we have all sort of different drivers we set damage abit lower so people will have fun as well as a good sim-expierence. we want both aliens and slow old guys enjoying the online racing and that has been one of our strong points i have to say. so damage not 100% , unrealistic repairing suspension in 60/70 cars, unrealistic. Refueling cars that would never refuel in real life, unrealistic. and hey what about this: allowing old people and inexperienced people to drive a sim. highly unrealistic. kick them out. Drivers with bad machines turn off smoke so they can keep out of trouble and not crash into others, ban them! People with old wheels without FFB, GTFO! Using flippers instead of H.... People with only 1 monitor trolololo Driving a modern F1 car on a 70's tracks....realy??? etc etc. At the end of the day when it comes to beeing fast and consistant its all about personal skills, practise, beeing smarter, not stressing under pressure, able to pressure others, creating good setups, knowing the mod inside-out, etc etc. I realy doubt 1 item as driving view or anything else in the sh*t-list above makes that much difference overall. And i dont think it will make anyone faster either, because its all about what you are used to. So imo its mostly in our heads, you can't actualy see someone using swingman so who cares anyways, its just another car on the track you need to overtake and if you are so hardcore then you should also be able to be faster, yes? Because the same logic some people throw into this discussion means swingman users are noobs to begin with. so pass the noob (if you can) and dont even think about it Or dont join the servers which allow this. Or start a hardcore league. But stop enforcing your personal views on others. it is just your view. I realy dont mind, with my cockpit and pedals/wheel, to get owned by a joypad user if they have the skill to do so. typically someone winning vs me is a better driver to begin with. you dont get fast just by using a joypad, you still have to be frigging good at what you do and fully understand the sim and how to drive a car to its limits. And a joyad seriously limits your options anyways vs a wheel, so where's the advantage/disadvantage? [preparing for sh*tstorm]
Well, basically, that was my point, I have to practise hard to be able to accomodate the limited visibility, whereas the other views let you cut corners (no pun intended) in that regard. Where I have to make it an exercise, and quite a frustrating one at times, to go through those blind crested corners over and over again, finding other visual cues for my marks and whatnot, basically trying to see something where there is nothing to see, those with the alternative views can just cross that off their list as "not necessary to worry about". And even when I have practised a thousand laps over, it is still easier to make a mistake in such a situation, or harder to get it right all the time. Again, we want a level playing field, and that also means, everyone should put in the same amount of effort to be in the ball park. I don´t. We have, I just like to think of it more as an exclusive club rather than a league. I merely replied in my capacity as an admin of our very own server(s), or quite simply, let me reply with a requote of your own words here: See, it works the other way around too, doesn´t it? Cheers, Marcus
If I ran a league (not gonna happen), I would ban most of those things if I could Denstjiro 1)so damage not 100% , unrealistic --- yes, unrealistic, should be 100% *as long as* damage model is finished and realistic. 2)repairing suspension in 60/70 cars, unrealistic. --- yes, unrealistic, shouldn't be there. 3)Refueling cars that would never refuel in real life, unrealistic. --- yes, unrealistic, shouldn't be there. 4)and hey what about this: allowing old people and inexperienced people to drive a sim. highly unrealistic. kick them out. --- no problem with that because 90% of the whole sim racing community couldn't drive a real openwheeler anyway. Not just inexperienced or old people. 5)Drivers with bad machines turn off smoke so they can keep out of trouble and not crash into others, ban them! --- the smoke was a big problem in rf1 and maybe still is in rf2. It reduces fps drastically so its understandable ppl want to turn it off but when they do, they gain GIANT advantage over people who only see white clouds, at the start of race mainly. IMO it needs to be implemented so it doesn't eat fps (I have no idea if that is possible) or turn it off for everybody when playing online. If some people have it and some don't, that's a problem, much bigger than cockpit view yes/no 6)People with old wheels without FFB, GTFO! --- no, don't see how not/using ffb gives advantage to anybody. 7)Using flippers instead of H.... --- actually, yes! Not sure how many would agree with me on this, but if we ever get realistic gearbox in rf2 there should be 4th option for shift aid - realistic, which would require to revmatch and shift only by using H, not up/downshift buttons (only in cars that had it this way ofc) 8)People with only 1 monitor trolololo --- hehe, no. 9)Driving a modern F1 car on a 70's tracks....realy??? --- well it is a bit nonsense, I think in leagues most ppl do run cars only on tracks that existed for their period (in the exact configuration).
I think this thread only shows some peoples frustrations. I guess that whoever that hosts a race with this characteristic enabled is because he thinks it provides certain advantage to use some available views. However, some do not respect their opinion and would like to join the race in their conditions. If you think it is so unfair, host/join races with those conditions and you will realize that not many people agree with your opinion. The way it is now, we can decide the rules we apply, so everyone should be happy. However, this pointless thread will go on and on since some people will never accept anything but their opinion.
It's just a shame folk get in such a state over how other people play...Why? What does it matter? We all have a choice, and are free to make it. Some are limited by equipment, space, money, time etc. Some are not. None of it is real. You cannot make it real, so all is being done here is splitting hairs over levels of UN-reality. I have a friend, races lying on his belly, with a joypad, on a single monitor. I have a triple display, Fanatic Elite, full race rig...and he kicks my butt. When I ask how, he says "you just need to put the car where it needs to be" What a simple, yet complex statement. He has raced for real, real car, real track, real racing. Sure he would love to have what I have, but lack of room, a young family and real life priorities prevent it. It does not prevent him from being one of my favourite people to race with, and it does not prevent him from being a dedicated, committed and skilled manipulator of computer pixels shaped like a car, around more pixels made to look like a track.
That's nice, good to have such friend and good for you have fun but I can ask you similar question - why do you care that some people care how others play? Please notice I never say how anybody should use and play rFactor or anything else, if they aren't playing with me. If I play with them, I do and always will care about certain things to decrease the amount of unrealism there is (as you said there's still a lot of unrealism in all sims). I won't however join a non cocpit server and shout "HEY IDIOTS, ALWAYS USE COCKPIT VIEW ELSE YOU SHOULD UNINSTALL RFACTOR". But I will try to only play with people with as similar conditions and rules as I.
Simple, I am responding, not instigating. I am not knocking anyone, just putting a point of view and asking a rhetorical question to which I do not really expect an answer. You it seems would automatically exclude my friend...not that I care, and nor would he, but by doing so, you miss racing a skilled and talented racer. That was my point. Why exclude because someone is restricted in the equipment they use? As long as they race fair, use skill, follow the rules of the track, well that should be enough. This is only my view, others have shared theirs, so I share mine...
I would have no issues racing with you Osella, no problem going 100% hardcore. i was just venting some 'other' considerations on the topic. its never black & white you see. You'de be suprised how things are different when you are running a league though, there's usualy much more to consider then just all of the above.
Every time I go to the track I don't duck-tape myself to the hood.I get in a cockpit where there are things like a wheel ,pedals and seat belts. If you want to race like you would in real life then there is no other view you should want to use,IMO.If your racing in any other view that is your choice, but the real men, use cockpit view,and the "want to Be's" use every excuse in the book, except that they don't have the talent.END OF STORY
some ppl think its just to hard no harder than when you first started playing with the view your using.
Rino, you should really rethink that statement as there are a number of people with cockpits that resemble the interior of a car already and so they have the view set to something that would accent that setup. Think of it this way: A driver has a full F1 cockpit in his house minus the suspsension and everything behind him. His rig for all intents and purposes is a real race car as far as what he sees. He then sets up a projector to display on a screen that is ahead of the cockpit, shows beside and even below it. That view would probably be bumper cam to most, but for him it allows him to see what he should be seeing when he is racing. Should he be forced to use a view that would be totally unrealistic for him? No!
That must be the 99% of people who dont use cockpit views. That or the other 1% I guess.. I dont care how people want to play either but I agree that if I am on a server I prefer that everyone is playing the same with a cockpit view. I dont tell anyone they should but yes, I would choose somewhere to race that is set up like that.
Yes he should use the cockpit view. Well I am not Rino, but since I already falsified that argument earlier in this thread, but maybe missed your attention, I try to put it in different words. First off, it is an excuse made up as a (constructed) example. Noone has the exact cockpit replica for all types of cars. It will always be some kind of "generic" cockpit. And don´t tell me, that hypothetical person would only drive one single car. I have yet to see a simracer who does not like the diversity. And if that person builds and sets that cockpit up themself, they would be inclined to make that construction not block their view on the projection area or screen in front of them. They would see more than they are supposed to in a real cockpit, having that unobstructed view. And staying within your example of bumper view, they´d have a vantage point that´s at the front of the car and not where the drivers head would be, which is just plain wrong. We are talking about the drivers perspective, right? Never seen a racecar driver on his belly sticking his head out of the bumper. But it´d certainly give "head on crash" a whole new dimension, sorry could not resist that one. So using cockpit view, is even the cheaper option, and quicker, when you switch cars, as opposed to rebuilding your whole rig everytime you switch cars, to have the correct cockpit. And, last but not least, since this thread is about forced cockpit view on a server, I can already see all those drivers joining our server, suddenly having their own "perfect" cockpit, so they can say "for me bumper view is best would you mind to allow it?" (which it still isn´t). How are we supposed to police that anyway? Cheers, Marcus
That should not be bumper cam, since the drivers head should roughly be where the camera is placed. You can remove the cockpit from the car file and only show suspension and tire parts and you have a very believable experience. Bumper cam is too low, too far from the actual position. If you need to go through all sorts of hoops to adjust that, use cockpit and turn off visuals that overlap with your own rig. Using bumper cam for this is fankly just plain wrong, no excuses whether people 'feel' it's more realistic, it's just not right, period. Think there is little room opinion here if you ask me, it is how it is, the head of the driver is in a certain position in the cockpit, and there is where the camera should be. (in my search for these pictures, it's so sad to see totally wrong fov or cam positions on very expensive motion rigs............) That still sucks, there you are with an awesome f1 tub, and want to drive the 370z for a bit... that's plain wrong Solution, two rigs! If only I had the money and space edit: I'd also like to clear something up here which I have seen throughout the topic, which seems to be a growing misunderstanding, or rather, different opinion? I see some people talk about being fast that is the big issue and they setup everything to cater for that. Not everybody is like this and some people favor immersion over being the fastest one out there, don't think that has been stated already. Now that is something opinion based, and I share the one where I choose immersion over speed. edit2: It still strikes me as odd, that this discussion even exists on a forum about a simulation...
