Can you drive an F1 car on the ceiling?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by DJCruicky, Aug 24, 2012.

  1. martymoose

    martymoose Registered

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    I was meaning mechanical modifications and fluids that are more of a limitation then the aero forces. A wing will provide lift in the same direction no matter which way it is inverted as long as enough air travels over the wings to generate the required lift. So like you said an upside down f1 car will still create down-force as long as the wheels are on the roof it shouldn't matter.

    Thats why it should be easier in a sim as we dont need to worry about fluids and such but it all depends to how the aerodynamic forces are modeled. If they are actually pushing down on the car or are just adjusting grip levels, seeing as wind is something ISI will be working on this should show that aero is modeled in a realistic way.

    Wind will have an effect on down-force as going into a strong wind will give more down-force and wind behind will reduce down-force. In order for wind effects to be realistic I think the aerodynamic forces must be properly simulated to a point. There is no way that RF2 is a full fluid simulation but it should have aero drag and lift numbers for a few parts of the car mainly the wings and front, center and rear of the car.

    If aero is done properly already someone could try some inverted wings figures as in a plane and see if the car will take off at a certain speed.
     
  2. PLAYLIFE

    PLAYLIFE Registered

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    Exactly.

    Similarly as I discussed months ago, a quick test with various temperatures, humidities and thus air densities (also linked to elevation, altitude below/above sea level) proved that these atmospheric conditions did not effect the current aerodynamics model which is obviously incorrect. As an ex-aero guy, this is what I'm looking forward to most in the future, getting a decent aero model taking into account atmospheric conditions (turbulence from car in front too) into account! The icing on the cake!
     
  3. baked bean

    baked bean Registered

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    Im no sure op, I can drive the other half up the wall though ;)
     
  4. coops

    coops Banned

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    PMSL baked bean
     
  5. Gearjammer

    Gearjammer Registered

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    An interesting concept, but is there sufficient inverse lift from the wings and aero to keep the car adhered to the track like that? I can see the car being able to do loops due to inertia, but not real sure about the whole driving upside down thing.
     
  6. jtbo

    jtbo Registered

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    Downforce required is quite a lot, if there is downforce worth of car's weight, it would be 0Kg car at ceiling, so you would need twice the car's weight worth of downforce and still it would be like F1 without downforce at all, now imagine how horrible that thing would be to drive enough fast that you would get enough downforce to stay up.

    That + fluids and sfuff are probably problems one would face in there.

    Suitable test track would be torus that is around 30km long and perhaps banked from top so that there would be no lateral force to mess things up, of course also 30km long tube should be working and in many ways easier, but one could not have so nice racing, with torus you could start racing on ceiling league, where drafting would have interesting effects.

    To experience it properly, one should make upside down sim racing cockpit and drive upside down, downforce surely keeps car on roof, but not driver, there is 1G pull for drivers hands, legs, everything which does create some challenges, but at least one would not need expensive motion platform to experience that G-force :)
     
  7. DJCruicky

    DJCruicky Registered

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    That is cool, Johannes :). Check out the video in the very first post, something like that. Very long straight tunnel, smoother the better, no bumps. :cool:

    Great minds think alike, I completely missed that thread.
    -------------

    I agree the down-force physics are most likely fake, but interested to find out otherwise.
     
  8. Marek Lesniak

    Marek Lesniak Car Team Staff Member

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    No canned aero. You can check telemetry, how the whole car reacts to aero, especially vertical forces acting on tyres and ride height + suspension compression.
    But... what really might not work well, is how "lift" and "downforce" are designed. It might be, that "downforce" means simply "down". Then, when car goes upside down on ceiling it will be pushed away from it and will fall, instead of got glued even more to ceiling, like it would happen in real life.
     
  9. Johannes Rojola

    Johannes Rojola Registered

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    Edit: My bad, you were talking about simulation in rF2 :)

    Downforce does not mean it pushes the car down to earth. It means that it pushes the car down as in relative to the car itself. Air doesn't care which way you are and which direction you are traveling. Surely, gravity does matter.

    I am little skeptic if Formula One car could be driven upside down, it would basically mean that it could fly (albeit, very badly) if you would turn the aero parts upside down. I don't think it would happen... Not sure though.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 24, 2012
  10. jtbo

    jtbo Registered

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    But how it is in rFactor, that might or might not be an issue. I remember how rF1 had some issues with things not upright, rF2 seems to be better with that, but not sure if this still is same as in real world, but with testing it should become quite clear.
     
  11. Johannes Rojola

    Johannes Rojola Registered

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    Yes, only testing would give an answer to that :)
     
  12. 1959nikos

    1959nikos Registered

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    Hey, I thought barrel was local, stupid of me, though this looks like...concrete prefab blocks?
     
  13. Dan AccretionRacing

    Dan AccretionRacing Registered

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    That is called the wall of Death
    http://youtu.be/Ci7ig-XV2Ic

    A more modern version is this
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9aREQpcLGU&feature=fvwrel
     
  14. 1959nikos

    1959nikos Registered

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    Hi Dany, now that you mention it, it came back to me, it was called "Round of Death" here.
     
  15. Johannes Rojola

    Johannes Rojola Registered

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    I have one testing track up and running. It has tunnel, wall of death, and a loop. I must say, having tested with rTrainer and with our own mod project, results are not very encouraging of gMotor engine handling these. But I'll port this to single play mode where there is more cars, and lets see what happens. I can also post this track for your use if interested.

    [​IMG]

    Mind me with graphics, this is test only :D And with these results it might be that this test is not worth continuing anyway...
     
  16. Marek Lesniak

    Marek Lesniak Car Team Staff Member

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    Can you make the ceiling flat about 4m wide? With such relatively low radius, it may be hard to do tests with low-riders like F1 of GT cars.

    After that change, please share it (can be just for DevMode). I will do some tests for sure!
     
  17. DJCruicky

    DJCruicky Registered

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    Wow Johannes, that is great. A big thank you. Shame your early tests have not been promising, but we'll still give it a go none the less. Thank you again. :)
     
  18. Johannes Rojola

    Johannes Rojola Registered

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    https://dl.dropbox.com/u/7364491/Stuntworld_devmode.rar

    Ceiling fixed too :)

    https://dl.dropbox.com/u/7364491/Stuntworld.rfcmp

    Here is also component version for use in Single play.

    With Formula Master I didn't get even close to reach the tunnel ceiling. Half way there stuff starts to happen. Also Formula went through the Loop, wall of death I didn't bother to try.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 24, 2012
  19. John.Persson

    John.Persson Registered

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    STATUS!!!!

    I demand youtube link of failed attempts!
     
  20. Marek Lesniak

    Marek Lesniak Car Team Staff Member

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    Thanks Johannes!
    OK, next issue - it has just too few polys (and some bumps) and car goes very unstable once I'm on "walls".
    Can you increase polycount of the tunnel? It's just a test track so I don't mind if the tunnel has 500k polys or even more ;-)

    But I must say, it looks promising :)

    EDIT:
    Actually, you can also increase radius of the tunnel, maybe 2x?

    The loop also has wayyyy too small radius. Make it at least 4-5x bigger (and with much more polys, because it is not smooth).
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 24, 2012

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