“ are rfactor2 physics broken” video

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by GTClub_wajdi, Dec 29, 2020.

  1. dazzer

    dazzer Registered

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    It seems more like a problem with the physics of the AI more than the real driver, for my part I have often noticed problems with the physics of the AI, but something like that I have never noticed with the physics of the real driver, (separating that still some aspects use different files obviously).
     
  2. Comante

    Comante Registered

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    Beside this, hard front/soft rear is a common setup for open wheeler with aero, like F1 . At least since simracing exist.
     
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  3. Slip_Angel

    Slip_Angel Registered

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    bumpiness is one problem what about mechanical balance ?
    Running such extremely stiff front i would imagine a really car will definitely be slow.
    The real issue is how such extreme understeer mechanical setup is even able to produce fast lap times, such setup should not be fast to begin with....so whether it can do it consistently is much smaller issue.
    It should NOT be fast even for 1 lap, that is what i'm saying and what IMO is realistic.

    What is even more broken is that the heavy understeer mechanical setup is countered by low rear wing....i don't even need a engineering degree to prove this is completely wrong.
    You CANNOT work such extreme balance.
    IRL maybe using TINY very TINY amout of mechanical understeer setup then using low wing by very small amount MAY work but here in RF2 the setup is full understeer and then countered with full low wing....it doesn't work like that.
    Basically what would be somewhat realistic is ->>
    Small mechanical understeer May allow you to run a touch lower wing than other ( I'm talking extremely low changes here)

    But what happened in RF2->>
    Extremely unrealistic understeer setup can be made to work with FULL low wing....as if lack of aero is compensated by mechanical balance.
    Aero grip and mechanical grip both needs to be optimal to be fast you can't trade one for other to such BIG degree but in RF2 you can.....as shown in video.
    This is taking advantage of way to forgiving tires as well.
     
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  4. John R Denman

    John R Denman Registered

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    Its kind of amusing to read through this thread.
    When a car is constructed as an accurate replica the optimal setups are pretty close to the real car. No its not perfect, and never will be until we have CPU's running in the terrahertz range and even then there are too many chaotic events to emulate 100%.

    It's no secret that the Sim market is pretty competitive at the boardroom level. It's no secret that some sims pay "Brand Name Pros" to strap on their logos. Yet no one questions the potential subterfuge. There may be some legitimate points of exploitation in the video, and if thats what folks need to have fun knock yourself out with it.

    Keep in mind setups include things like wind speeds, directions, and even changes in direction. If you catch everything just right it's amazing how that changes lap times and maybe setups. One great thing about the internet is anyone can get their 15 minutes of fame or notoriety depending on the perception of the audience.

    Looking through the active server lists GT3 cars account for probably half or more of the servers, most of which are empty. It's kind of baffling that with something like over 50,000 (and probably much more) active Factor2 players that at any given moment there aren't a lot more folks online, maybe they're watching internet videos rather than developing their tuning skills with more challenging cars than GT3 or others that rely on driver assists.

    There are some exceptional mods out there, both S397 and independent. Open Wheelers, Prototypes, Vintage, yet too challenging for the majority of folks to contest online. At least thats what the active servers show.
     
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  5. Emery

    Emery Registered

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    Strange that you acknowledge the understeer and riding on bumpstops contributes to the understeer, but you don't acknowledge that too much camber is as bad as not enough camber. Less wing reduces downforce, so less riding on bumpstops plus more oversteer enables the driver in the video to drive in the manner to which he is accustomed. I'll just go away now since we have different views and I've no vested interest in fighting with you.
     
  6. Slip_Angel

    Slip_Angel Registered

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    bruh he is using front bumpstop ....rear wing ain't affecting it, if anything rear wing at high setting might even lift front.
    i was right you are missing the point and you talked some incorrect stuff on there. anyways good chunk of people know about flaws in physics including aliens they acknowledge it. your defending is actually not helping.
    Do you like unrealistic sim ? or you like to fool yourself ?
    simple truth RF2 physics has flaws and it needs fixing ASAP no discussions. it is not even a question, it is FACTS, I tested it (infact i'm testing it right now still ) ,thousands of other knew it many more know it thanks to these videos and community.
    definitely see yourself out, we want people who care about physics here, not blind defenders.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2020
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  7. Comante

    Comante Registered

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    Please, you are going nuts for a marginal region of the simulation scope that affect a limited number of people ( people who have the will to find and explore such limits) for what? The solution to this problem is no behind the corner, first because after 4 pages we still don't know what cause it, how, when, then something must be invented to reconcile this segment of the simulation to reality. A daunting task in my opinion, to maybe open another door elsewhere to "exploiters" .. the blanket is short, it can't cover reality 100% .... otherwise we wouldn't call it simulation anymore.
     
  8. Slip_Angel

    Slip_Angel Registered

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    We know the problem...its tyres allowing such ridiculous setup, overheating sidewalls, excellent grip at high degress of oversteer and high steering wheel input. etc etc
    then there is probably aero causing another issues like lack of stalling at too much YAW angle etc or even losing good chunk of grip while at high yaw angles , punishment for too much body movement allowed by soft setup should have much bigger impact on aero especially underbody aero.
    The list goes on and on ............. improvement starts with tyres then if things are still bad then aero is definitely causing trouble.

    This is not marginal by any means ...it is just not well know to all consumers, if these exploits were known easily the sales of RF2 would be half no doubt or even worse. People who come to simulation industry because they are tired of arcade stuff. We all here are people who into this niche , marginal market. everybody cares about it unless they don't know it exist.
    I'm sorry but i'm gonna voice these straight up know issues for years everytime.
    Also do you think its okay to let this BIG thing slide because "small' No. of people know about it ? (basically everyone of esports and some well informed people here...which is NOT small BTW)
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2020
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  9. Kime

    Kime Registered

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    that is a mod, not official content...
     
  10. Emery

    Emery Registered

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    The parameters you're talking about are available when modeling a car's physics, not a problem with the physics engine. And there's always somebody who will disagree with the parameters used, which makes it questionable whether the people disagreeing have better data or not.
     
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  11. atomed

    atomed Registered

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    That's what I was going to ask, is it possible to stop this kind of "hacks" from the car/mod side? Or is it just that the whole environment allows these things to happen...
     
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  12. Slip_Angel

    Slip_Angel Registered

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    Those parameters are not accessible by user it is in the hands of devs. They should definitely take a look into it, as currently it is no good anyways.
     
  13. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    Boy oh boy. There's 15 mins I won't get back, and if I can go the rest of my life without hearing a crackly mic oops! That was my system!, "quote unquote", and "humanly possible" I'll be quite happy.

    So let's just sum up what happened in this video:
    • first timed lap, confessed second lap of the day, on a default setup.
    • second timed lap, with a modified ("hack") setup, with increased brake blanking, and increased radiator tape. Goes faster.
    • third timed lap, now using low ABS, and adjusting brake bias corner to corner. Goes faster.
    Wow. What a revelation.

    The varied lines on these laps, considering the theme, is incredible. Comparing laptimes across single laps is something I'd only expect the absolutely most consistent and fast drivers to be able to do with any accuracy, and what we're seeing here is not consistency. I'm a mediocre driver and to test setup or car (modding) changes I run 5+ laps (static fuel, no tyre wear, static realroad.. you know, "properly"), then use Motec to stitch together realistic best corners (pre braking zone to pre braking zone to minimise variation - if you give some thought to where sector splits sometimes are, and how an 'ideal laptime' can be unrealistically fast when they're placed in the wrong spot, you'll understand why) and come up with an overall laptime. Even then after a few runs with different setups you need to revert to the first and check again, because you can start to find better lines or approaches that gain you time as you drive more, or you just get more warmed up as you drive longer. I'd expect this less of a top driver, but you can tell by their driving in that case - not here.

    The setup changes don't appear to be massive. The seemingly often quoted "minimum wing" (how much exactly? Oh, who cares.. it's minimum, let's act like it's 1°!) is apparently only a click or two above the default, which is already quite low. The front ARB gets detached, which is interesting because usually the 'hack' people talk about is detaching the rear. We have some vague references to the default setup being different to what you'd expect (based on... other games? Doesn't say).

    All in all there doesn't seem to be a lot to take from this. My main take away personally is disappointment that I helped start a discussion around a "watch this video" otherwise empty opening post completely devoid of information or opinion (posts I normally try to stay away from) by an OP who hasn't responded since.


    That a lot of the ensuing discussion is composed mainly of assumptions and generalisations and contradictions really shouldn't be any surprise.


    There may well be issues with some or even all DLC content, and there may even be issues with core rF2 physics itself. But if people aren't going to bother putting any real effort into identifying and presenting them, I don't see any point having a discussion about it.

    Have fun.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2020
  14. billyblaze

    billyblaze Registered

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    I think you might need to take a step back and calm down a little there,....."bruh". Dude wants to join in the discussion - no matter what his opinion is - that's up to him.....not YOU. He should "see himself out"? - WTF?!!?. Emery has been one of the backbones of this community for over 10 years (he has personally helped me - and others - become a much better driver, plus helped countless others having issues with the software) - and I hate to burst your little bubble, but he knows his way around a setup, too. Meanwhile, who the f are you? - a johnny-come-lately, know-it-all, try-hard with an overbearing attitude, and a tendency to confuse his opinions with facts? No thanks. You say "...we (we...really???)want people who care about physics here..." but my interpretation of your posts is, that what you really want is to issue dogma from on high, while everyone basks in your clearly superior knowledge - but, guess what? - it ain't happening, Skippy. Seriously, get over yourself. The ratio of try-hards vs. people who want to have a fun hobby in sim racing is becoming seriously out-of-whack, and it is a real drag.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2021
  15. pilAUTO

    pilAUTO Registered

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    Without going into details, there are two points that S397 needs to work on urgently, provided they consider the physics engine to be the most important thing in a simulation, and that although rF2 has made progress in the last 4 years, this progress has been insufficient :


    1) Specific problems identified either by the community or by S397 :

    In any case, it's not for users to highlight, identify, and detail precisely what's wrong, it's up to the developer.

    2) Desirable improvements for the physics engine :

    Some must be given priority, it is obvious. Nonetheless, ALL improvements in the physics engine are desired and desirable.

    Indeed, users have the right, and this should be seen as a very desirable and encouraged contribution, to say in their opinion what is priority.

    BUT, again, it's up to the developer to identify what needs to be improved, prioritize what needs to be improved, and listen to the community.
    It is up to them to do this and it should not be conditioned by user suggestions.

    This work is for S397 to do, and to understand that it is essential and urgent, it is for S397 to become aware of it.


    As far as I'm concerned, ANY improvement in the physics engine is desirable, S397 just needs to identify which upgrades are top priority.
     
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  16. Slip_Angel

    Slip_Angel Registered

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    It seems some people here think RF2 is perfect lmao. far from it, setup is not done in realistic way to be fast, driving is totally unrealistic (just watch some alien laps FFS ! )

    Hopefully devs don't look at these handful of people who kiss their a$$ as opinion of complete community.
    Anyone with knowledge knows how broken RF2 and these exploits are FACTS, they are proven COUNTLESS times , they can be seen in top level EVERYDAY.
    LMAO when real drivers says driving used IRL is different than in RF2 ....when teams say real life setup engineering won't work same with RF2.......yep RF2 is perfect.
    Bringing simulation quality down is all you fanboys are doing. You guys deserve such broken game, keep wasting your time and money on it.
    I would have been a game developer if i knew that people are this blind and fanboying this strong.

    Enjoy....fooling yourself.

    I'm going to ferrari to tell them to throw ARB out of the car and run minimum wing,camber and toe . Use lowest pressure, use highest brake duct blanket , completely cover the radiator cuz that sh*t is doing nothing but adding DRAG am i right ? yes.
    Run the setup on front bump alone run full mechanically understeer setup
    Tell their drivers to throw the cars around like go karts, add more steering wheel angle than necessary ,drift the car and ......voila ferrari wins F1 2021 ....... RF2 is real it just works.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2021
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  17. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    I think there could be truths in both sides. There probably is stuff that surely isn't realistic and there is stuff that is mistaken to be unrealistic. It is a bit difficult while there is no way to examine parameters and some channels are blocked for telemetry, or they aren't ?

    Some stuff seems kind of obvious, yet probably not undeniable enough.

    Has there been actions after Michelin post virtual le mans 24h race ? Reducing abrasive wear would actually make tires work differently. Might actually make them even more confidence aspiring at sliding. But maybe would contribute to making tire sharper.

    Detached arb doesn't mean its detached. It means its at base value. Which is one step lower.

    Low wing is relative to other settings. It might still be producing good amount of effects depending on parameters.

    And I also used to have a thought that some beta testers might have solid karting experience. And are using that quite directly at evaluating cars that aren't working too much like go karts. And it could influence some handling features.

    Anyway if Michelin says something publicly and it doesn't get addressed, or did it? Then we all are wasting ourselves.
     
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  18. David Short

    David Short Registered

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    It seems some people here know that RF2 is not perfect so they are quite generous with their time and knowledge to help everyone get the most out of it now. The Studio must know too as they are still actively working on developments and improvements.

    You're entitled to your opinion and I'm sure we would all like our own individual idea of a perfect rF2 up and running yesterday. Call me a skeptic but as real and cool and fun as sims are they can never be 100% realistic. Just grateful we have something that gets us most of the way there as we wait for more capable CPU's and future improvements.

    Referencing your comment from another thread on this topic you're enjoyment or sense of realism shouldn't be hindered at all by any potential hacks or what aliens are doing. Unless you're saying that you can't find any realistic setups to just drive around. Virtually every computer program is hackable in the mean time instead of being a game developer to exploit our blind fanboying work on your own realistic setup if you don't have all this.... Full motion simulation, sim cockpit, Vr, multiple Tactile transducers, crew chief, simhub etc.etc. Because if you just have a wheel bolted on to a desk and pedals on the floor and your ultimate goal is realism..Enjoy...fooling yourself

    Happy new year.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2021
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  19. Slip_Angel

    Slip_Angel Registered

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    Yea very active, taking them years to fix these exploits. 100% realism is not possible true but it can't be this broken.
    Saying our hardware is no good , every program is hackable etc is just hiding the issues and diverting the topic.
    How my sense of realism would not be hindered if the driving ,setup the vehicle dynamics itself are broken in title know as a "Simulator "
    Do you even understand what are you on about ?
    You guys come up with amazing excuses and are expert at diverting topics.
    Plus you don't need all those equipment to get good immersion all that is complete BS.
    What a waste of time you fanboys are.

    P.S ->> The issue are not opinions they are facts.... high level guys use them, go search it up if you have guts to break your bubble lol.
    my comments are objectively correct. Saying that the stated facts as "opinion " is very weak defence and pretty stupid.
    Is this all the couter you fanboys got ? laughable.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2021
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  20. Comante

    Comante Registered

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    Please contact your physician urgently.
     

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