“ are rfactor2 physics broken” video

[MarcG]

To be honest Lazza, I don't want to be more specific, because that's not my role as a simple user.

Indeed, I am neither a physical modder, nor a mechanic, nor a mechanical engineer, nor a tire specialist.

Just an enthusiast.

I do have a number of ideas on what should be improved, but that's not for me to define, but in S397.

I just note that :

1) Physics have evolved in a notable way with regard to the tire model and with regard to the modding quality of the official cars.
2) That for years rF2 had a very big lead over the competition in terms of physics engine (AC ........), but that this is NO LONGER the case (Assetto Compet '....).

I consider that rF2 should not continue to be caught up and should correct these enormous lacks/faults (eg: transmission).

I don't understand that so many people write walls of text to talk about graphics or UI, almost never talking about physics, EXPLICITLY asking S397 to improve the simulation on its main aspect (realism).

But dear friends, the less rF2 users will come forward to ask for an improvement in the physics engine...........................................................The less they will, it's as easy as that.

(responding to the Bold sections) So you're asking for changes but you don't want to be more specific about what you want? That doesn't make sense, sorry, if you want "change" speak up with your Ideas & Feedback otherwise it won't happen. You then finish off asking for people to speak up...see what I'm getting at?!

As for ACC and Other Sims, is it not just simply the case that they've *finally* caught up to RF2 standards and in ACCs case taken over as the Best? It doesn't make RF2s Physics any worse just more stagnant perhaps, it's still fundamentally the same under the hood as its always been.

 

[Slip_Angel]

i think the grip drop after peak of tire should much more punishing thats all. This is why such unrealistically understeery or oversterry setup sort of works.
regarding detach ARB, i tested detaching rear arb while running lower wing on my currently owned GTE cars and honestly the rear definitely loses grip in corners and especially in mid-high speed braking zones.
BUT on other hand i don't think detaching and running low arb should be working with these aero driver GT cars.
i have said it multiple times the overall physics need to be improved and should be new focus now since U.I and comp system has come a long way and been in spotlight for too long, taking resources away from physics.

biggest broken thing apart from mechanical and aero exploits is electronics but since i don't use them i don't care.

 

[Slip_Angel]

I don't understand that so many people write walls of text to talk about graphics or UI, almost never talking about physics

This, people need to ask more about stuff that actually matters in a simulator. RF2 can still use OLD U.I but if it has most realistic physics people will buy it no matter. ACC is ahead in all other aspect except physics and hence I am not playing it.

 

[zaphman]

It's an issue for users having (some) knowledge of setups, and theory regarding (real life) setup adjustments, and find out that a setting in rFactor 2 is something one would never use in real life - you get confused at least. I.e. it get's a bit "whoever has most time and imagination" will benefit - instead of racing engineering knowhow. No, setups must aim to be as real as possible - this is a simulator after all.

So an overhaul of the physics, and setup impacts must be set on the priority list, IMHO.

Though, there is one other factor - this is is a game - you may sacrifice some stability in favor of speed (and adjust your driving style). Something you would never do in real life with the amount of money/injury involved in case of a crash.

 

[mantasisg]

I often talk about physics. But there is just less involvement at it because complexity of the subject. It is all big puzzle, which is exciting to solve. There are some guys who are good at going at the right track when talking about physics, not necessarily they must be scientists.

Although often youtubers talk physics less or more off, with exception of actual guys who develop and make some series, it is still nice to have a topic under some light with a help of some controversy. Just hopefully it would mature and not go off the track.

Speaking of ACC, played it very little recently. Although it probably has more realistic point of no return, it felt to me like approach of it became worse than it used to. I drove porsche gt3 at spa, and tires felt rather blunt. But certainly it is all down to car parameters too.

 

[mister dog]

After the demise of the 'pretendracecars' blog, it's good to have someone who stirs up a discussion with a bit of hyperbole.
He did change a ton of stuff there on the setup front, but I remember testing detached RB's at the front in rf2 and it didn't hurt the driving. I'm no expert though.

 

[sg333]

At the end of the day, you arent driving a car. You are 'driving' a spreadsheet. It looks and sounds like a car, but it isnt going to behave as a real one does. I've watched some of the aliens do laps and if you did some of those things in a real car, you'd be face first in a tire wall first time.

 

[leseb64]

this kind of video is very good for buzz, views and folowers...

 

[mantasisg]

At the end of the day, you arent driving a car. You are 'driving' a spreadsheet. It looks and sounds like a car, but it isnt going to behave as a real one does. I've watched some of the aliens do laps and if you did some of those things in a real car, you'd be face first in a tire wall first time.

Indeed. But it depends on whats in spreadsheet. rF2 is very good IMO and there are cars there and there that majorly underuse of whats possible to simulate, as well as does great use of rF2. And I am not even thinking of buzzzzzwords like "omg data", but of what is simply obesrvable by watching the real cars and pure logic that should be enough to get stuff into ballpark or very close to it even before continuing with data to refine whole picture. And even data has to be taken with grain of salt.

There definitely are plenty of values that data just wouldn't come. And there physics artists are at work. I would suppose they could likely make pretty awesome stuff alone or with ultimate power to choose what to do, what to listen and what not. But I have a feeling that managing department might have a lot of impact for the aim of how the physics should be (in every sim), managing physics artists and beta-testers for particular goals that are not only realism. I used to say - "it's all tires, man", but I think managers are tires of simulators. But the they are not the tread, so they don't wear lol At the end of the day they need income, which depends on the ultimate managers - people who buy.

 

[SoloWingX]

Same here. His interview with Marcel was very good. His channel felt really genuine at the beginning but it turned into something else as he obviously wants to build a YouTube career. Gotta go with what's popular and that's now ACC, after a period of praising AMS2 and rF2 that he now semi-hates. Also now emphasing on simracing drama with strong "expert" opinions not always exactly nuanced. That get views I guess.
That's not to say the topic of that particular video is not worth addressing, but that's just the tone and "know-it-all" attitude that is irritating (especially the end), let alone unmentioned stuff for these tests (track using the same rubber between runs or not ?). And apparently other sims do not have setup exploits...

Semi-hates rF2? Did you watch the video?

He used to praise rF2 as much as possible, somebody on the comment section of an older video "revealed" these setup "hacks" to him that he started to investigate, especially after he started to race on a bit more competitive level and realized driving "normally" without exploits is just not enough on the competitive scene. That's the main problem, especially with rF2 aiming to extend more into organized online racing.

This guy sure sees a lot of hate here I see, but I assure you he made a lot of sales for rFactor 2 (including myself with some DLC content). But simracing communities gotta be simracing communities...

 

[Slip_Angel]

Sigh , so i tried some "hacks" on my normal setup. I only tried detaching ARB and well it works.
You gained lot of mechanical grip.... and despite running no ARB the underbody aero is not having any side effects on corners i.e i'm carrying same speeds PLUS i don't even think that ARB even influences camber because on both of the setup normal V.S detached ARB the tire temperature spread was similar.

At this point they should totally drop everything U.I, Comp system etc and focus all 100% resources on getting the physics right.

All this time i wasted on creating realistic setup has gone to garbage bin as laws of physics are broken in here.

Please don't even try to defend this anymore, if you defend this you are enemy of realism , an enemy of simulator industry.

I'm glad i refunded this dlc , i'm not given a single cent until they go hard on physics. I encourage you all to make developers know these flaws, post it wherever you think they will notice.

I wish i had money to have real car and not deal with this BS lol.

 

[Korva7]

There definitely are plenty of values that data just wouldn't come. And there physics artists are at work. I would suppose they could likely make pretty awesome stuff alone or with ultimate power to choose what to do, what to listen and what not. But I have a feeling that managing department might have a lot of impact for the aim of how the physics should be (in every sim), managing physics artists and beta-testers for particular goals that are not only realism. I used to say - "it's all tires, man", but I think managers are tires of simulators. But the they are not the tread, so they don't wear lol At the end of the day they need income, which depends on the ultimate managers - people who buy.

This is something I have been suspecting also. I think this bias on making cars to be on forgiving side and giving maximum grip at high slip angles is not a good combination with the pursue of being a platform for these E-sports competitions. The difference to real car behavior will be/is pretty obvious on qualifying on-board footage. Also the feedback from the racers (and Heusinkveld)
is going have negative impact on rf2's reputation as a realistic sim. I hope they choose more neutral direction when they do next physics updates.

 

[John R Denman]

This is something I have been suspecting also. I think this bias on making cars to be on forgiving side and giving maximum grip at high slip angles is not a good combination with the pursue of being a platform for these E-sports competitions. The difference to real car behavior will be/is pretty obvious on qualifying on-board footage. Also the feedback from the racers (and Heusinkveld)
is going have negative impact on rf2's reputation as a realistic sim. I hope they choose more neutral direction when they do next physics updates.

While I can understand your point at the same time its somewhat laughable. All modern racing tires have a significant level of reserve in them, otherwise it would be virtually impossible to run a 24 hour or even 6 hour race as every car would be into the wall without that reserve. That reserve comes from the slip angle slope. Qualifying laps are one thing but racing is another.

 

[mantasisg]

Not laughable at all. Laughable is when modern RL racers drive like on tracks to achieve maximum performance, and it is hard to do, but in sims it is a benefit to cook it. Slipping slightly IRL and they loose tenths or seconds. The reserve left is to save the car, and I'd argue there is not that much of that reserve. And in very unfortunate circumstances there might be just none of it, and cars just snaps away, we could ask Dennis Lind. One moment car is all at slide, next moment car has all the grip, but he is correctign the slide, and it violently tank slaps. The fact is drivers do have accidents and don't finish endurance races, or even sprint races.

Take that red pill, blue pill is not available.

And slip curves slopes doesn't tell everything, it is just a bit to describe how tires works physically, but it is not whole thing. There are multiple circumstances working against from every front when car is about to get lost. ESPECIALLY MODERN. First of all if cars has very high peak grip, the higher they come, the lower they fall. Sliding friction is a lot lower than static friction. Slip angle grows, more of the tire is working at sliding at contact area. Heat builds up, lowering friction further. Rubber starts getting torn off the rest of the tire providing even less grip, as it basically has more grip to surface than to the tire at that point. Sliding friction also depends on velocity. Tight stiff tires with little complience doesn't allow much of flex and twists contact patch strongly diminishing static contact area. To make it all even better, with increasin yaw angle aero stalls, and grip decreases even faster. To make it all even better still, if car is that much high performing on such narrow window, and you manage to get car stop overturning for you and you aren't ready to straighten out wheels soon enough, then suddenly car thinks that it is about to make a turn, and does a tank slapper reserved for you. They do have all sorts of stuff in reserve.

This above might sound like iracing. But I think iracing has it too much, they probably have some kind of future tires simulated in there, which obviously did continue on trends of narrowing windows of performance, but peaking higher. Also their Lotus 49 is a joke.

 

[John R Denman]

Not laughable at all. Laughable is when modern RL racers drive like on tracks to achieve maximum performance, and it is hard to do, but in sims it is a benefit to cook it.

One of the great things with rFactor is the physics algorithms allow one can define the desired characteristics of tire behavior. No need to alter the algorithm to force others to drive like grandma.

Its kind of ironic that Trish England recently posted a number of IMSA videos on Facebook that demonstrate the reserve and when that reserve is overcome. But lets get back to the original topic.

 

[mantasisg]

No no. Pleaso no altering any formulas, codes or anything (I am not sure about algorhythms, perhaps AI has them ?) for sake of getting desired characteristics. Parametrisation allows all that is needed for all sorts of fantasies, but I think it also should be used just to follow reality. Because simulation is about honestly replicating reality, thats why I am finding it interesting. It is just an issue that we see some key elements very differently, and that seems to be whole perception science on its own.

 

[BazzaLB]

So a video is posted with an exact car and track combo and specifically selected combo that is some of the latest dlc. He explains what settings he changed and the unexpected consequences. Does 3 laps to show exactly what happens in each of the corners and yet still people want specifics with some having not even watched the video because someone else claimed it was more about his life.. Say what?

The entire video is just the 3 laps and settings he made in between. Go watch the video... its exactly as described on the tin. Every video I have seen of his he is always praising the feel of rf2 at the wheel and yet he semi hates rf2?

This is why these setup exploits will never be fixed because people just want to ignore that they even exist.

 

[Lazza]

@BazzaLB and then calls the video "Are rFactor2's physics broken?"

There are already discussions around the GT cars and setup oddities, mainly focused around aero (at least, by people who have analysed the telemetry with setup changes). Anytime a car is heavy on aero it can be prone to some strange behaviour and it can be difficult to differentiate from tyre behaviour.

So by all means, point out how a car or group of cars is behaving wrong. All rF2 fans will thank you for improving the game and its content.

PS you are right, I should watch the video, and I will. Too often they are a waste of time, so I'm generally reluctant.

 

[BazzaLB]

@BazzaLB and then calls the video "Are rFactor2's physics broken?"

There are already discussions around the GT cars and setup oddities, mainly focused around aero (at least, by people who have analysed the telemetry with setup changes). Anytime a car is heavy on aero it can be prone to some strange behaviour and it can be difficult to differentiate from tyre behaviour.

So by all means, point out how a car or group of cars is behaving wrong. All rF2 fans will thank you for improving the game and its content.

Hmmm, I should have read the tin more carefully it seems

So what you are saying is the example he shows could be issues with rf2 aero implementation and more examples of cars that are less aero sensitive need to be shown first before the developers should even contemplate investigating? I take it you still didn't watch the video which is of course your perogative, but you seem to be one of the more knowledgeable and helpful chaps around here so would be interested in your specific take on it.

 

[Emery]

Running faster by detaching swaybars and lowering the rear wing are issues? Not in my mind since the default setup is understeery. You can see him struggling with the default setup's understeer and rather than tune himself to drive the setup, he just keeps plowing into corners. 1.5 second improvement with a setup that suits his driving style? Sure, no problem.