“ are rfactor2 physics broken” video

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by GTClub_wajdi, Dec 29, 2020.

  1. AMillward

    AMillward Registered

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    These setup exploits won't go away if they fix the ones currently in the sim. They will just find a new one.

    eSports is about exploiting the physics engine just as much as real motorsport is about seeing what you can extract beyond what's written in the rule book.
     
  2. Slip_Angel

    Slip_Angel Registered

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    exploiting physics when a software is claiming to be a "simulator" is VERY different than going around the rules IRL.
    are they bending laws of vehicle dynamics IRL ? you are talking about 2 completely different thing, that comparison is wrong.

    keeping exploits to minimum should be the goal instead of rolling with it for YEARS like what is happening here.
     
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  3. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    @AMillward And because of that rules keeps on evolving. Good thing about physics is that those are laws that won't change. IRL I mean. But I think it won't change in rF2 as well haha. And it is not only negative - no change means, that although improvement won't happen, but there is no chance of degrading as well. I am sure S397 values ISI physics very much, and nothing will be done unless it is certtainly complete improvement, and thats right approach.

    P.S. at this point I speak about rf2 as a whole, not physics of a single piece of content.
     
  4. MarcG

    MarcG Registered

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    I don't think anyone in this thread has claimed RF2 is perfect, quite contrary, this Sim - like all others - is prone to it's own flaws.

    Hopefully they don't just listen to those who Rant & Cry the loudest either ;) From what I've seen over the years it's clear they listen to all sides of the story, not just one particular "crowd" of people. :)

    Every Sim has Exploits, during the (V8)Supercars iRacing Series last year the Race Engineers did things that they wouldn't get away with in Real Life. The sooner you realise that no Sim is perfect and that they all have their individual issues & exploits the better you'll be able to accept that this is what it is for *every* Sim, not just RF2

    Some polite advice for you personally:
    Please try being respectful of other posters opinions, whilst you may not agree with them there's no need to throw the "fanboy" tag around and go OTT, we're all fans of this & other Sims. So try and post constructively & politely and you'll garner more respect, not just from others but perhaps the Devs as well, thank you. :)
     
  5. Filip

    Filip Registered

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    Rf2 physics probably have some exploits which is expected for a computer game available and made for fun and home use.
    Being advertised as the ultra realistic doesn't mean it's perfect.
    If physics work correct in let's say 98% of the time to make it work correctly in remaining 2% could be too much work or even impossible.
    Big majority of users probably wouldn't notice anyway. It wouldn't draw new players either.

    Those who expect maximum realism from a 30 EUR commercial computer game that needs to run on home pc are delusional.
    If one needs better physics there are options:
    - find another mass market sim that doesn't have exploits
    - buy professional simulator software (be prepared to spend 100 times more money and hot lap only one vehicle)
     
  6. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    Are we lowering the bar at this point ?
     
  7. David Short

    David Short Registered

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    Oh I didn't know they were working on fixing these exploits for years. I foolishly thought they were trying to balance staying in business by being profitable with improving the product they took over all within the realities of time constraints. Broken?? This is just where its at right now not 100% realism or perfect. Hopefully the things you're pointing out are addressed and fixable without compromising something else.

    I said our hardware is no good? Pointing out the reality that software programs are hackable and unfortunately there are always some looking for an exploit or advantage is hiding the issue that there are hacks and exploits in software? These aren't cars their a software program and software has its limitations.

    So you are saying that every single possible setup for all the available cars are broken? Perhaps we should refer to it as a "Game" thats more realistic than a video game.

    Yes well aware what I'm on about, a product attempting to simulate something very complicated with countless variables thru computer code which is a daunting task. I'm not trying to make any excuses at all and like you I hope for the most realism and as many fixes as soon as possible. But realize its not as easy as This needs to be fixed Instantly because I want it and have set my expectations accordingly.
    You're all about realism, software needs to be flawless and absolutely realistic but Simulating the cars actual Chassis movements and vibrations is complete BS..got it. o_O

    Your definition of a Fanboy being anyone that doesn't 100% agree with you're edicts is that fact or an opinion?

    Peace I'm tapping out:D
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2021
  8. Slip_Angel

    Slip_Angel Registered

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    No wonder S397 not fixing these issues for years as this community is willing to put up with this mess.
    Not only that but guys buy new content instantly. Feeding to the loop of no improvement but new items to add more issues.
    Amazing things going on here, continue.... i'm done.
     
  9. Remco Majoor

    Remco Majoor Registered

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    Just because you feel a certain way, doesn't mean everyone has to feel the same. You show no sign of respect to others in this thread with your 'I know everything and if you don't agree you're dumb' statements. Just calm down. Everyone else has, which is why they aren't on that same bandwagon you are on of "this is the worst omg so unrealistic they must fix it immediately". Everyone here knows these exploits are not realistic. I'm pretty sure the devs do too (I bugged them about it far enough on the discord). We also know it's taking its time to get a fix or get worked on at all. S397 has its priorities as well. Those might not always align with mine or yours, but it has its reasons.

    In the end all simulators have its flaws and exploits. That's the nature of programming. People still want it to be as close as possible, but stuff like that takes time. For most of us rF2 still is one of the best, and that's why after we give the devs constructive criticism, we just enjoy the product.
     
  10. billyblaze

    billyblaze Registered

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    I think a psychiatrist might be more beneficial, unless the physicians have taken over the treatment of personality disorders.
     
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  11. pilAUTO

    pilAUTO Registered

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    If we agree, that although other things in a simulation are important, but by far the most important is realism (especially the physics engine), we can hope that the folks in this forum and discord are more "loud" (in a positive way) about it, by explicitly asking S397 to prioritize developments over the physics engine (some of the resources, not all of course).

    I think it is necessary, and it is because it has not been done in 4 years that the physics engine has insufficiently evolved (some evolutions are positive : quality of car physics + improvement of the tire model).

    Think about it guys.
     
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  12. hitm4k3r

    hitm4k3r Registered

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    Somehow I have seen this topic before. Did anyone notice that ABS was used in this "test"? On a car that doesn't have ABS in RL? How is this even considered as scientific? And virtual cars are driven in alien ways? Who would have expected this? Let's face it, aliens driving sim cars in wierd ways and exploiting physics has been common practice for as long as this gerne exists with a certain amount of complexity and if one loophole is fixed, it might open another one. This is not me saying they shouldn't work on the physics engine and improve it, but I doubt that this video is of any help in that matter. The fact alone that he doesn't have to care about his virtual life, car or the limited tire sets and practice time perfectly shows that sims aren't hardcore enough in areas that have nothing to do with the cars or tracks but surrounding facts and variables that affect your performance. A real driver won't have the time to "test" and exploit his machinery like an alien who uses consumer sim software.

    Noone mentioned how tracks and ambient temps, environmental conditions like wind, airpressure or humidity can have an impact on the performance of the car. For a fact, rF2 is a sim where cars are driven in allmost perfect conditions even if it is one of the more dynamic sims. What about the track itself? How much rubber or dust is on track? Are people even aware of that different tire compounds used in different series can have tremendous impact on how a car performs. There isn't that single kind of rubber in the real world as it is in rF2. Prosche Cup car rubber is not F1 rubber. At the end this all comes down to the tires and their performance, yet there are so many variables involved that many people don't understand the amount of complexity and scope that comes with such a discussion.

    Who knows if this is a tire problem or or the lack of environemental effects? I for sure don't. Btw, at the beginning of rF2s life cycle cars and especialy the tires for some cars were hyper sensetive to temperature increase as soon as you started sliding the cars. So I doubt that this is a physics issue per se. Maybe it's just the GT3 and GTE tires. You for sure can't abuse the Civic or Clio tires like that :)
     
  13. TJones

    TJones Registered

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    I doubt they're willing or able to change much. UI and competition system will keep them busy the coming years. Improvements of physic engine might be thinkable as small side projekts at best IMO. Just what we have seen in the past.
     
  14. romaFC

    romaFC Registered

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    rf2 is the best simulator on the market.

    how dare anyone question it.

    I have real gt3 motec data around road america. overlaying motec on top with real world data its almost 1:1.

    its matches up so well that imsa gt3 build setups on rf2 for imsa series.


    /thread.


    (/sarcasm mode off)
     
  15. smbrm

    smbrm Registered

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    “These setup exploits won't go away if they fix the ones currently in the sim. They will just find a new one.”

    I found this to be the most interesting comment. Success in any endeavour is dependent upon the skill, daring, inquisitiveness and desire to understand the variables and controls that drive the connection between inputs and outputs. Real motor racing is an extreme example of this. The goal of the race team(all aspects including driver) is to understand and control the variables to optimize and balance their influence to achieve a desired outcome. Each season we watch race teams continuously exercise these principles, slicing and dicing in finer and finer increments to understand and influence physical behaviour. A simulator can be real( identical to the real physical world) or it can be what it is. That doesn’t change the fact that it is set of variables and controls that can be understood and managed for a desired outcome.
     
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  16. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    Variables should be desired to be realistic. If we give up on supporting rF2 and wishing for better then we all just lost. Wishing is the minimum we can do to fuel progress. Just supporting is not that much motivating, but is necessary also.

    Personally, it looks demotivating how much lack of passion for more realism and higher quality is often shown in community for various things. While at the same time lowly set bars and unspoiled mature nature of not crying over insignificant bits reducing great effort behind for everything else is a good thing. But perhaps we have little too much of "I don't care, happy with anything and will cheer everyone just for sake of it, not that I truly mean it, I'm just feeling like I should do it". Anyways this often makes people with original and unique sharp criticism to look like whiny and unhappy children, and sometimes even considered as whiners and complainers, which is toxic and support of rF2 in reverse.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2021
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  17. FERNANDO CABRERA

    FERNANDO CABRERA Registered

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    Just as a side note, in the last Automobilista 2 update (V1.1.0.0) there where reported 17 physics related fixes; from BoP to car adjustment and limits. Little by little a sim that constantly adjust and tune it flaws became a more refine product and it what reiza is doing with AMS2.

    As I recall Reiza team is small or smaller than studio 397; how come reiza can push down the pipeline update to is physics models and there is no word from studio 397 regarding update in the physic department??
     
  18. green serpent

    green serpent Registered

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    Obviously this would not be finacially viable (or maybe even impossible), but in my massively over simplified fantasy world that usually dosn't work out in real life, the ideal situation would be for a studio to own their own small test track and have a (scalled down) wind tunnel. Work on, say, one or two cars per year testing many different variables for hundreds if not thousands of hours with a supercomputer crunching the numbers. Then create a virtual impirical model of the car (which should be as close to the real thing as possible), then create a physical real-time model of the car, run them side by side virtually day and night continuously tweaking parameters until the physical model matches the imperical model. Then, use that physical model to build more cars - for the subsequent cars maybe run them through a more basic and simplfied real world test.
    Okay, that's just some random ideas and that would obviously not be how it would work IRL, but the point is, buy a couple of cheapish, basic cars and do a crap tonne of real world tests to then build/find flaws in the base physics model. It would be a pricey endevour for sure but if you had some kind of system set up you could eventually test newer cars and then sell the virtual model back to the manufacturer etc. Plus I will personally donate $100 to this project! Edit: plus I will work for free testing cars ;) ;) ;)
     
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  19. Slip_Angel

    Slip_Angel Registered

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    So i have been doing more testing with arbs and camber.
    So based on my recent testing i came to conclusion that maybe setup is working as intended BUT tyres are not executing the results properly which is probably why setup seems broken and unrealistic.
    So here is an idea, until devs sort this stuff out ( If they do ) in meantime we could ask for a tool for tyres. So this will allow the user to achieve what he thinks is realistic.
    What will this tool do ->>
    • This tool will provide user to change some of the parameters of given tire. we can change parameters for either each car separately or for entire class or some other way, whichever is easier to implement. Obviously i'm not asking for all the parameters.
    Just a select few that are easy to implement.

    How will data be hidden then ?

    This can be done by not actually showing the values we are changing.
    The tool will simply show us the clicks we have added or taken out of a given parameters, just like some of the setup for in-game cars.
    for example ARB is shown as P1 or P2 and so on..something similar like this.

    Also developers will decide how much actual value are changing for each click
    If the given parameter is very sensitive to small changes then of course one click will change only small amount.


    Also it would be a single player tool only so people cannot cheat online.

    Either implement it directly in new U.I or keep it as a separate launcher.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2021
  20. Remco Majoor

    Remco Majoor Registered

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    Or, since it's for single player only, don't use the exploits and keep the setup what you think is realistic. Or since it's for single player anyway, use mods. There are already many out there.
     
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