Fixxed for ya Learn to drive the Skippy well, and I'll bet you see your skillset with other cars improve.
WRONG. Watch videos, go drive one in real life, etc etc etc. Just because you cant feel the grip because you are sitting in a chair behind a computer doesnt mean they dont have lots of grip.
With typical engines there is no chance, pedal travel at engine idle speed corresponds exactly to % of rpm range. It simply doesn't work that way. First of all, there is a linearity for throttle pedal. Very modern cars have that slightly tweaked to get better/faster response, so it gives you an impression that the car has more thrust or whatever... Typically though, we are looking at linear response - if my pedal travel is 50mm and that corresponds to throttle link to be moved by 30mm, then with 25mm pedal travel I will get the link moved by 15mm. I won't go with throttle valve as they are set differently with different cars. Some are closed at idle speed (and there is a separate channel just for idle) and some (most) are slightly open at idle (about 8-10 deg.). Although all of them will be fully open at 90 deg. Second thing, is engine mapping and how that corresponds to how much fuel/mixture goes to cylinders at a given throttle position. But an engine has its inertia, which has to be overcomed (right now we are at idle speed). In modern road sports cars with xxx hp, you don't have to puch throttle much, to get to cutoff. So yes, having 50% revs with just 10% of throttle is perfectly fine and plausible for such car. Side note - on the road, how much throttle you have to push, depends on current speed, mechanical friction,rolling friction, aero drag, weight of the car and do you go on flat road, uphill or downhill (and how steep it is). EDIT: No, that is not that obvious and it depends. You have to apply as much throttle (deliver more rich mixture) to overcome engine's internal friction and compression. IF we'd have an example engine with very high inertia but low friction then yes, you'd put throttle to some % and then wait, while rpms go up and up to some point. But most of car engines have relatively low inertia, so reaction on throttle input is pretty fast (and in sports cars is can be very fast).
Engine rpm doesn’t correlate to throttle position at all. The only thing engine rpm correlates to is speed (wheel speed, and the ratio depends on gearing). The throttle affects the amount of fuel injected to the engine which may or may not increase engine rpm depending on engine load. We rarely race cars with no engine load so the throttle-fuel mapping has to be adjusted to give correct engine response through a lot of different loads. Revving the engine with the clutch engaged at no load the engine will certainly run to the redline with less then full throttle.
However you spin it, I shouldn't be hitting 80% of throttle within 10% of movement with the weight of the car applying load. There should be some kind of delay in that. rF2's throttle response acts like the car is in neurtral just rev'ing the engine, as if there is no load to slow that increase in throttle/power. To me, that is the problem. I've tried AGAIN to run the skippy at Lime Rock and at 35-40mph through turns 1 and 2, BARELY touching the wheel, I let off and the ass end comes around. Are you seriously trying to tell me that is normal??? I don't care what car you're in, at 40mph, letting off the gas isn't going to bring the ass end around in an uncontrollable spin. There's nobody on Earth that would convince me of that. Something is not right, period.
Like Kknorpp001 said, if people that have driven them, and youtube onboard videos arent enough proof for you, then just watch Skip Barbers own training video which shows the cars spinning via throttle-lift oversteer going like 35 around a skidpad. All these complaints about physics and being too hard, it really worries me about the future of sims. Wayyyyy to many people keep going on about this "harder isnt realistic" "race cars are easy to drive unless you want to get the last 5% out of them" crap, which is complete non-sense. I used to see people spinning, locking brakes, getting all out of shape all the time when they were 5 seconds a lap slower on a 1 minute-ish lap (very small lap). That is wayyyyyyyy more than the last 5% of the cars abilities. I fear that with sims getting better and better with more natural oversteer and oversteer correction (I feel RF2 still has some issues in this area, but wayyy better than RF1 and always improving), that in doing so, will be dumbing down the knife edge characterisitics these cars have when you are really pushing. What will solve this is if sims really try to make more of an effort to feel the grip better and earlier so that the grip loss wont seem so sudden and snappy. As in real life then you will be able to feel the grip loss earlier and better/in more detail, then you wont be as suprised by the grip loss and you will naturally back off like you do in real life, rather than keep on pushing until its too late and then blame the physics, when its actually the lack of feeling thats the problem, and not the actual physics itself. RF2 I believe needs to improve in this area aswell, the visual cues for oversteer sometimes seem weird and un-natural, not all the time, but sometimes, in some situations. Sometimes it feels (or maybe looks from the visual cues) as if the entire car is rotating, rather than the rear of it swinging out. Sometimes its as if a hand came down, grabbed the car and rotated it, rather than the rear swinging out.
To me, the best endorsement that a sim is working like a real race car is when a driver from that series publicly says that the car handles just like the one he really drives. We may never know the setup tweaks that are done for the driver, but at least we know that with a specific setup, the driver was happy enough to endorse the game physics and handling. With older cars that are not being run any more, it would be very difficult to get an endorsement, but with the 2012 F2, we have seen that ISI has had a full endorsement of how the car behaves. This tells me that the physics of the car are as real as can be done by the game engine, and is capable of convincing a real F2 driver that the car is working ok. All that being said, there is no reason to suspect that the physics are way off for the Skip Barber car, unless you think that data was entered incorrectly for that car but not for other cars. With the license to put the car into the sim I am pretty sure that the Skip Barber school has given specs that would allow for a correct simulation. @zim2323: Have you ever taken your car out to a parking lot or anything like that and tried to drive like you were on a skid pad to see how fast you could go without losing control of your car? Have you lifted the throttle suddenly when trying to drive like that? My guess is you have not, otherwise you would find that most street cars are not balanced anyways, and the tires are designed with a lot more allowance for slip angle so that the car will be more stable in a lot of conditions that a racing tire would not like.
The problem is, I know a real world driver that took his racing license test in a Skippy and said it was on rails, no where near as loose as what they've experienced in rF2. I don't understand how there could be such a huge black and white difference between those individuals and the drivers here. Maybe there's something different in those testing scenarios vs what the guys here that race them. I wish I had someone that was close to me that could sit at my system and show me what they do, and show me what I'm doing wrong, if that's the case.
I found the vid and I've been through most of it. Nothing ground breaking, just common sense stuff. All the same things I do and have done for years. I think it's important to note, I'm not trying to set track records, just run a slow, non-competitive lap that I can keep on the track and control the car. When I'm losing it going into turn 1 and 2 at the end of the straights, I'm not just letting all the way out. I don't think I properly communicated that. So, to explain further, when I hit turn 1, I brake early on straight, back on gas to power through at about 60, while riding the brake to slowly bring it down to 45 or so to turn 2, still trail braking and holding 30% throttle minimum. It's hit or miss whether or not the rear end holds, it usually doesn't. I can maybe hit those 2 corners and make it stick 2-3 times out of 10. I am quick at trying to correct the oversteer and even try to slide through it, but there's just way too much oversteer that brings the car around. Last night I tried something a little different again after my last post. I brought the car down to 50mph at end of straight BEFORE I start the turn in, and then slowly throttle through 1 and 2, letting off just slightly to get through 2. That did help success through turns, but I'm losing way too much time/speed through turn 1. In the vid when the car comes around on skid pad when letting off, he's letting all the way off and counter-steering. He can at least catch it. When I hit that point, I'm dragging the brake, I'm still on the throttle some, and I'm counter-steering. Nothing, still comes around with no controllability. That is missing entirely. So what speed are you pulling through Turn 1 and Turn 2?
How can you look at your speed and drive at the same time? I have no clue what speed I go through any of the corners. I mean I can look at the speed by I won't be doing 100%, or I can do 100% but can't look at the speed at the same time. Anyway in my experience if you start to counter steer you have already gone too far. Also brake and throttle at the same time is a pretty hard thing to do properly (well at least for me). Sounds like it is for you too so maybe you should start by not using this technique and see how fast can you go without it.
Part of it is using the TrackMap plugin for rF2 or GID plugin for rF1. I've got the tach/speedometer piece sitting in the middle of the screen right above the steering wheel below the windshield/dash line. I don't have to take my eyes off the road at all to see every critical reading, rpm, speed, gear, lap times, etc etc. The other part is just experience doing it. I can tell by RPM sound, or the relative world/track approximately how fast I'm going. I've been Sim racing for more then 20 years now. While I'm no road racing expert, I've had a lot of success in the oval side of things and a fair amount of success in the road racing side. For all the league championhips and accolades I've received in NR2003, rF1, and other sims, I take most of what I've learned during that time with a grain of salt. IMO, rF2 is going to change the game to a certain extent, and I'm absolutely ok with that. I could quite easily go from being one of the fastest in the leagues I run to one of the slowest. I am fine with rethinking and reteaching myself how to drive and forget what I know and what I think should be right. Most of my comparisons are not from a sim to sim comparison, but from my real world experience to sim comparison. I know what my real cars do, I know how their sim counterparts react. I've owned a 500hp Lingenfelter 2005 GTO, and I've driven a 850hp 427 Corvette Z06. I was in Lingenfelter's shops rebuilding their server domain when they had the 1200+ HP Corvette under development that beat the Hennessey Viper. I love NDA's! Got to see some really cool stuff before it ever became public. And btw, what was funny was watching four 250lb men sit in the back of that Z06 and see the tires smoke in 4th gear in a dyno pull. That 1200+hp vette was truly unique. They never could estimate actual HP, but guessed it somewhere in the 1800+hp range. They could never get enough weight in the rear to keep it set on the dyno. LOL I have talked to and interacted with those people in the know for quite some time. I may not have all the personal experience others do in the real world, but I can definitely use their experience, just as others are using the local real world drivers experience here. I know what I see and feel in my cars, and I expect 'somewhat' to feel that in the sim world. Part of the reason that throttle is so frustrating to me. One unique thing from that video also...listen to what he says about holding the throttle down and where. If we were to do that in the sim, we'd slide off the track. There's not enough 'drag' on the motor. It feels like it comes up to speed too quickly and that the engine isn't bogged down enough by the HP and relative weight of the car. The overall power to weight looks off to me when comparing what I see in that vid to what I experience in the sim. I can't even come close to flooring the throttle, rolling into it or otherwise, where Skip says he is. If I tried to do that, the rear tires would smoke off the car.
I've been trailbraking for years. I'm actually quite good at it and provides significantly faster laps as I can power through a turn without upsetting the balance of the car as much. I'm using a T500RS with the load cell brake mod. That has made things easier as well. When I speak of counter-steering, you are right, it is at the point it's gone too far, but I've even attempted to counter-steer early before I would be feeling something in order to catch anything the sim I may not be properly translating. I know that's not the case because when I do that, I just hook left. If I was missing something I could gradually fall into the slide and correct, but that's not happening. To your final note, I have attempted to not do any trail braking. Much slower times, I can't turn AT ALL while off the gas. Absolutely no ability to turn the car without it coming around. The only way to keep car straight is to ONLY be gradually increasing throttle. As soon as I let off at all, even a short blip to correct too much speed (I'm talking fraction of a second), then it just goes into oversteer and slides off the track. Again, that's while trying to oversteer. Also, more info. I'm running a private practice session with 32 (or whatever the max is) AI so that rubber builds up. Track is a little easier to drive after 10-15 minutes of AI cars running, but no significant change, as I wouldn't expect there would be with this type of car/tire. More to come the more I try. That said, I shouldn't have to find a glitch in the sim to make a car drivable because of bad physics. Personally, I believe there are 2 factors. Not enough lateral grip coefficient at low speeds, and too much throttle input with not enough weight/load represented in low RPM situations. Of course, that RPM situation would be dependent on car, hp, tq, temp, track surface, track grade, etc., but compared to real world video, does not add up, IMO. On that lateral grip, is the grip the same at low speeds as it is high, or is it dynamic based on speed, car weight, etc? In that, a car at high speeds is going to be 'lighter' then a car at low speeds which should have more grip because the weight of the car is 'heavier' at those lower speeds. And I'm ok with the car being squirly and loose, even really loose on edge. I like my cars like that. I find the inability to catch any spin the problem, which is what all the above highlights and illustrates. It's the outright inability to catch any mistake that's the problem. I definitely feel the bumps and slides when I'm moving through a corner at speed, and to me, those do feel good.
What kind of laptimes and sector times are you doing? Regional or National Skippy version? The car is built with a hideous weight distribution, there is so much hanging there at the back of the car, with tyres no wider than the fronts. It gives an exaggerated feel like a real old Porsche, needing the throttle on to stay balanced mid corner, but giving nice rear traction when you get it sussed. But hey, I'm sure you are all up to play with this If I'm driving it correctly, the Skippy feels on rails to me. Keeping the power on, very slight slide on exit, the car just sticks. Maybe you are just driving it too fast. If you are constantly spinning and slipping, you just have to change the way you drive it. It's not going to finally accept your way of driving and stick to whatever input you give it. The videos I've seen of the Skippy show the racers pushing no way near as hard as we do in the game. Theres no major drifting, they don't pile into that first corner balancing the brake and throttle (crucial for that first sweeper) with the rears chirping (no, not your backside...maybe sometimes XD). We also don't get any of the feedback like in a real car, which may lead some people to think they are going slow through a corner compared to what they see with real racers or in their real cars. It's all stuff to keep in mind before proclaiming the physics are off with the car and ISI didn't do their homework. It's not as though it is a multi million dollar, top secret car with top secret tyres that noone can get data on... The rubber plays a huge part, do some green track driving in it, and then go to the pits and fast forward to get a real heavy amount and see the difference. The marbles will start to build up though, which makes any off line excursion onto them real slippy. They build up even quicker in a private sesion, as the AI run such constant lines, which after 40 odd mins, results in their laptimes dropping. Even worse for us, as we probably take a different line on some corners. I know I do. Anyone who has played iRacing could give a nice comparision between rF2 and it, seeing as they both have Skippys and LRP.
Maybe you dragging the brake 30% is the problem, if you can't turn into the corners unless you do tons of trailbraking then you are going pretty fast, I would slow it down a notch and just try to get a feel for the car's dynamics better. If you are hacking away at the wheels or pedals you aren't driving properly, you need to smoothly (not slowly, but smoothly) apply the brakes, get the car semi rotated in the corner, as you feel it rotating more and more you un-wind the wheel more and you let off the brake more and you apply more balancing throttle. Then you get the car in a nice steady state mid corner lean with very little correcting of any kind. These cars aren't on rails, and aren't meant to be on rails, anyone who says that is just in shock of being in a single seater for the first time or lapping 10 seconds a lap slower and therefore has the available grip to do whatever he wants with the car, giving the impression the car is in rails. A few times I gave a couple friends a real hard drive around this sort of rally style road in my dads Toyota corolla, my friends were freaking out due to the speeds, these were your typical "hotshot I think I'm an awesome driver" type guys too. Guess what they were saying at the end, "this car is in rails!" "I never knew a Toyota corolla could do that!" etc etc. Now tell me, do you actually think my dads 2006 Toyota Corolla handles like it's on rails? Lol It's all subjective in relation to what you have experienced before, how hard you are pushing, how hard you THINK you are pushing, how many other single seaters have you driven before etc etc etc The real life skippy is not even close to a car that is on rails (although a lot of customers would constantly say that because they were in shock of what a single seater could do)
Yeah, i don't know how skilled he is. He may be pretty quick and can handle himself, in which case he needs to use the throttle to control the rear of the car under braking and allow for trail braking through the first corner. It just takes practice to get the feel needed to do it. If you dont do it, you won't be able to crack a real quick time. If not, then yes, he needs to just start with the basics and get a chunk of completed laps. I'm lapping in the 55:8-9's easy, fastest is a 55:616, no chicanes. It's not exactly sluggish. I know that so long as I have the power on, the car isn't going to do anything crazy. You start to lift in anyway , or have to correct a bad line, and then it gets hairy. On rails as in the tyres don't slip? No, not what I meant...
