Incidentally, and this isn't directed at anyone in particular, but I often see people asserting that if the real Skippy were as hard to drive as the ones in sims that students would be constantly wrecking them, and there's no way they'd be used as a training car, etc. I always wish they could see what an actual 3-day school event looks like. I know people upload hero vids to Youtube all the time, showing them lapping in a school session, but that's not it. You need to see the actual 3-day school in totality, and then you would see that there are in fact a lot of LOC (loss of control) events over those three days. The thing is the instructors, who are all over the damn track, are expecting this, and so you don't get to just go out and start lapping at full speed. You don't even get to go out lapping at all. You start out doing exercises that illustrate how much off-throttle oversteer the car has, and what that means. They take you out to a slalom course and people think, "phe...this is easy." Then they spin. Then they spin again. It goes on from there, and even when they do start letting you lap the course it's very controlled. You're expected to brake at a very conservative point indicated by cones, and if you don't then you'll be called in and talked to. You can't use all the revs, and so forth. In other words, it's all crafted to allow you to lose control without (most likely) damaging the car or yourself. And that's exactly what a lot of people do, myself included. I spun more times than I can recall in my 3-day. Even at competitive events there are instructors at points around the track, and you will be called in for "feedback" if they think you're pushing unsafely. Aside from the financial liability if you damage a car, having multiple accidents in one event or weekend will send you home. And this happens. I think I saw at least one person sent home at each race weekend I attended, usually some assumed rich kid in his late teens or early twenties. The car isn't intended to be easy to drive at the limit. The idea is that if they can teach you how to drive such a neutral and sensitive car at its maximum, you have a good chance of a successful racing career.
I agree with the OP. It's always seemed strange to me that a Skip Barber training car would be so much more difficult to drive than a Formula 3 car from the 60's. The Skippy does have more HP, but should benefit from 50 years of development. I have always assumed that the WCR60's F3 cars are dumbed down a little bit to make them more fun as a pick-up-and-drive open wheel series, whereas the Skippy is based on the real car, which is meant to be well balanced albeit difficult to drive so it is a good training tool. I have no problem with that either- it's a formula that works since one of the longest running online pubby servers is the F3 Fanatics server run by Bryan Birtwell who has done an awesome job with that server. One of the best sim races I have ever been in (26 drivers!) was in the F3 with Champion Motorsports. It always takes me a few laps and few spins to get used to the Skippy, then I can drive it well and it is fun. The F3, I can just hop in a drive fast as soon as it is warm. Weird.
Thanks for your words Matt and all who trying to help. It is not that easy for me to explain how i would do it in german, better say it is impossible to find the same words in there right meaning. So it is possible that i explain something totally wrong without to realise it is. May you guys are right and it is me, but i really doubt it is the case at least in relation to the odd looking steering geometrie ( where i still don't know if the visuals are showing the real time physics ) and automatic speeding. If than the steering geometrie is wrong because it acts like it is. Just lowering steering angle helps here but it is still odd. In relation to the automatic speeding, i don't know better to explain but that is for sure not normal. This is the most disturbing thing what happens with all rf2 cars. Really and honest guys, this car is outer balance or damaged is what i would say if i would feel this in real. You can say a skippy drives like this but i would still say it is crap engineered or the setup is totally off. I would check the car to find out why it drives like this, and you can believe me after my hands on, it wouldn't drive like this, whatever this car should be but it is nothing to teach people to learn racing. This car would kill many beginner or at least it would turn the track day to a destruction derby.
Well, I tried to explain why that doesn't happen, and that even with all the controls in place at the school there are still a lot of off-track incidents, spins and - at actual race weekends - broken cars. But enough of that... I finally looked at your picture. I had tried before but it's very high-res so it was taking forever. My initial reaction was that the front wheel angles looked pretty wrong, just as you say, so I loaded up the sim and looked at it from other perspectives. It reveals that it's just an optical effect. All of these are at maximum lock. From directly overhead. Here they look to be at virtually the same angle: View attachment 10026 From in front. Here the inside wheel appears to be turned more, so it's opposite to your pic: View attachment 10027 And here's a shot of the car from iRacing where I tried to mimic your camera perspective. It looks very similar: View attachment 10028
That just looks like Ackerman steering to me. The pic above illustrates greater steering lock on the inside tire, not outside. That's how it should be.
Again thanks guys, that looks more right to me. The steering thing is clear now and can be checked off. So there remains only the issue with the autospeeding/spin what I could so far not clearly explain. May it is a bug because i don't get why nobody have had realise the same thing happening. I'm giving it up for the first, because so it makes no sense for me to drive. It destroys the whole driving feeling which except from these thing, is pretty much the best so far.
Did a small demonstaration video of the Skippy at Lime rock, this is my first try to publish a video, sorry for the poor quality. Some driving tips: - Drive as you would do in a real car, not a simulator. - Begin with slow laps, drive calm and relaxed, speed comes with experience. - Don't turn your steeringwheel much more than necessary for the specific corner, or you burn your front tyres. - For the Skippy, slow in fast out of corner. - Avoid to fully lift throttle instantly in a corner, instead lift timely and only to idle.
Thx TJones, yes it is possible to drive it and it looks good but also stressful and requires constant corrections. Not sure if this is a good choice to teach beginner but ok that was not my issue, just this autospeeding after reaching a certain slip angle under acc, where it then even without gas further accelerate until it has turned around. I will check it again after the break.
Hang on, is stability control on? I remember when stability control was on in the Camaro, it would give throttle to the car if it started to spin. I.E. My foot was off the throttle and I was flicking the car really hard to get a slide. Then the revs would rise like the throttle was stuck while it was in the process of spinning. It's either that, or you are way over the limit, and once it has gone past a certain point, it won't come back.
Intresting, usually everything is turned off but who knows whats going on under the hood of my system and I will install everything fresh once the pc upgrade is complete and as soon as I get a result we can talk again about.
Can I ask if you have left exaggerated yaw set to the default 25 in your control settings? If you have, try setting to zero. For me it made the skippy go from one of the worst feeling in terms of realism, to exactly what it is, THE best trainer hands down, and tons of fun. I think it is a big mistake ISI having that setting on 25 by default, and wouldn't surprise me to find out that this is the main reason for anyone who tries but doesn't buy. When you get the feeling right the graphical inadequacies fade, which would be the only other reason for not having this sim.
I did yes, usually i try to match everything to get max realism. Sometimes it needs more than just to set those available sliders or options in game to reach a higher level but it is possible when everything is in balance after tweaking some and no real problem for me. No it's not the cause of bad settings, more something technical or physical and unfortunately the skippy is not the only one car showing this off, no it's just the most worse in this case, but like i said i can not explore further there at the moment. I tap on drivetrain or tires and i will see if i can continue there where i left off.
Not saying this will solve your problems with the skippy, but why are you changing your FOV between cars, and at such a massive range of 24-40? The perception of corner sharpness, distance to objects, elevation changes, sense of speed, width of road, car movement, pretty much the entire world, will all look & feel different, it would be like racing on some crazy drugs or something. Your car may change, your eyepoint, seating position etc. may change, but the world around you does not change. Try to stick with one FOV, for all cars, all sims, etc so that everything is relative, consistent and comparable. Every car and every sim is simulating the same world from a human beings perspective after all.
Usually i use the same for the most cars but sometimes it requires a minor adjustment. Perhaps the upward area was somewhat exaggerated. Most of the time, it moves between ( 24 result of calculater ) 24 - 33 max.
Your discussion caught my attention. So, I went in game and from the cockpit the wheels, when turned full right or left appear to "point" the opposite of what would be the normal angle... i.e. the inside (of the turn) wheel angle should be greater than the outside wheel angle. I think the question needing answered is, is the image only wrong or are both the image and the physics wrong... :? (Akerman angle)
That was the reason why i was confused but Matt S. could take some shots from a different POV where it looks again pretty normal and more right.
I found that out recently as well. I have no idea why they would activate that by default. Everything feels much better now.
Yup, visuals are like ffb, they can really, REALLY influence the way we perceive the car to be acting/behaving etc, and it's physics in general. Makes direct comparisons between other cars in the same sim, let alone other sims, somewhat difficult. I have spent the last 6 or so months playing only RF1, at only toban (short layout, non-reverse) with only the stock ISI cars. I have noticed some really good things in their handling dynamics that I think were really overlooked from many simmers due to mostly the ffb not being to many peoples liking
Coming from iRacing, and the Skippy there. The one in iRacing seems easier to drive, I would assume thats because its on slicks and the one here in RFactor2 is on treaded tires ? The on throttle going thru a corner takes a lot of getting used to. That and I'm using a TSW2 wheel which works great in iRacing, but not so good in RFactor 2 I'm afraid. At least not so far, and with the change in build from 90 to the latest one. Its my favorite car in iRacing, here still not sure. But all the cars seem very twitchy, which may just be the wheel. So I need to practice more and maybe adjust the wheel sensitivity maybe, not really sure.
