Why is the Skip Barber so difficult if it's supposed to be a noob car?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by momoracer, Jan 7, 2018.

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  1. christos_Swc

    christos_Swc Registered

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    Wall of text incoming, you have been warned:rolleyes:
    Don't know.
    RF2 has chassis flexing but chassis flexing in karts acts both as suspension and as a cornering aid by lifting the inside rear wheel.
    Also karts have a solid rear axle the diameter of which is critical because it also flexes, you can use a different diameter rear axle but also tighten it down or loosen it up through the chassis mounts.
    Just to give you an idea I had my seat break once so I took it to a shop where they build and repair light boats because they work with fiberglass.
    I specifically asked them to apply the fiber glass lightly so the seat doesn't loose it's flexibility.
    After getting my seat back my performance in the kart was abysmal.
    I jumped into an exact same kart of a fellow racer and it felt like I got out of a formula and into a Mercedes, it would ride over curbs where mine would crash into them transferring the shock through my spine.
    All because those guys just threw some fiberglass on the seat without caring how much, tightening up the whole chassis.
    In the end, after convincing the team it was not in my head, we loosened the seat mounting wheels so the seat would move around with some freedom.
    Normally you wouldn't do that because this movement will eat into the fiber glass and eventually destroy the seat but there was no choice pre race.
    I went out like this and took pole.
    So then we knew for sure what had gone down.

    As for body weight transfer is used in rainy conditions where killing understeer is critical.
    In the dry you want to maintain posture.
    Sure enough at the end of long straights in high performance karts and in high profile championships drivers will lean forward to reduce resistance.
    Also , if the kart has only rear brakes then pulling the body back on the brakes improves performance because you want as much weight as possible over the rear wheels, the only ones slowing you down.
    Generally though in the dry you do not use your body weight, you just make sure that the seat is perfectly placed for the center of gravity per the manufacturer's recommendations and track conditions.

    Fun fact: One can easily understand that the most efficient way to slow down is to have the weight transfer to the braking wheels, so when you only have rear brakes and overall weight shifts forward during braking it's not ideal.
    But a kart has more than 60% of the weight at the back and those super fat tires at the rear.
    So imagine what it would be like if you were braking backwards instead.
    I had the chance to find out once when after spinning I found myself rolling backwards so I rode on the brake.
    The kart didn't decelerate, it got literally pinned down!
     
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  2. AMillward

    AMillward Registered

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    Riding a motorbike, but in a car.
     
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  3. Comante

    Comante Registered

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    In karts you lean you head down a bit even to counteract acceleration, once I tried a racing kart, and was not advised about the head,at the beginning of each straight as I pushed on the throttle I immediately saw only the sky and not the track, I just made 3 laps, and my neck was sore for some time after..
     
  4. SPASKIS

    SPASKIS Registered

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    Karts have solid rear axle and the weight distribution and special steering try to provoke to lift the inner rear wheel in order to turn without sliding in the rear.

    The body weight distribution component is difficult to model in a racing sim since there is no input for it.
    I wonder if VR can be used as a new input depending on what you do with your head.

    For the steering I understand that is a much simpler thing since it is already necessary to accurately simulate it in order to calculate a precise FFB.

    However I don't know how it works in rF2 or if it has been properly correlated in the sim.

    The easy part is that a kart is affordable and it should be easier for a sim racing developer to properly gather data without depending on manufacturers and limitations for testing.

    Buy a kart for @Michael Borda and let him monitor it with sensors. You'll get the best kart sim in the market.
     
  5. Seven Smiles

    Seven Smiles Registered

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  6. AMillward

    AMillward Registered

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    Its hard to find kart setups but there are some out there
     
  7. green serpent

    green serpent Registered

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    I know that from changing the rear bar from horizontal to vertical IRL made a huge difference and made the kart seem undrivable at some tracks. I didn't realize adding a bit of fiber glass to the seat would do a similar thing! I guess karts are one of those things that seem very simple but are actually quite complex. It still makes me wonder though, if flex in a kart chassis is so important to the handling of the kart, than rf2 karts should be head and shoulders above the rest cos at least they attempt to simulate this.
     
  8. mesfigas

    mesfigas Registered

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    both skip barber and formula vee are nightmare to drive
    does this happen in real life ?
     
  9. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    They aren't if you drive them properly. They are very sensitive to weight transfer.
     
  10. Leynad

    Leynad Registered

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    Yes, just watch those videos...




    A former employee of the Barber-School said, they were using an understeering setup. Usually the Skip Barber in rF2 is not a problem to drive, when you don't go off-throttle. The Vee is a bit more crazy and you can try my setup-tip here.
     
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  11. mesfigas

    mesfigas Registered

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    @Lazza they are super sensitive to anything
     
  12. mesfigas

    mesfigas Registered

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    @Leynad thanks mate i ll watch tommorow and try again
     
  13. JimmyT

    JimmyT Registered

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    Wow the side by side vid is pretty good.
     
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  14. davehenrie

    davehenrie Registered

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    I think ONE of the reasons the Skip Barber is advised for beginners, is that your mistakes are amplified. So while yes, it can be difficult, hopefully you begin to learn what NOT to do. I think the GT3s with their ABS and TC are going to spoil a-lot of drivers. Last time I took out the Norma(LMP3 no TC, no ABS), I couldn't finish one lap without tossing it off.
    I used to love racing Indycar1 with a joystick. The tires were super sticky and the downforce was amazing. You did NOT need to worry about lines, or braking technique, just jam it in and it will keep going. Then they came out with Indycar 2 and suddenly I could never quickly drive ever ever again. (see? it's all Papyrus' fault!!!) (I coulda been somebody) (I coulda been a contenda!)
     
  15. Leynad

    Leynad Registered

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    Afaik it was meant to coach (wannabe) racecar-drivers and not beginners, why it's called racing and not driving school. Default setup is a bit too much with both the Skippy and the Vee, so maybe try these setups.
     

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  16. DrivingFast

    DrivingFast Registered

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    I have a hard time believing that physics and the default setup of the Vee in rF2 correctly reflect the handling of the Vee IRL ..... maybe my impression is wrong.

    But from the moment I doubt the realism of a car in rF2, I do not use it : this is the case of the Vee.

    By the way, for me in all rF2 only 2 cars seem really "difficult" with the default setup and hard tires (little drive, however) :

    Gazoline Alley and Vee.

    The skipBarber never seemed difficult for me.
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2019
  17. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    Those cars has great skill sensitivity :D
     
  18. AMillward

    AMillward Registered

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    Skip Barber is all about weight transfer and from what I remember are designed so if you come off the gas you get lift off oversteer. I'm assuming F Vee is the same.

    Just becuase it's easy to crash it doesn't mean it's not realistic.
     
  19. Comante

    Comante Registered

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    Have not tried the Vee, but spent a lot of time in the skippy. She want to be danced around smooth and sweet and is a picky girl, if you are not on the right mood she will kick your nuts.
     
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  20. woochoo

    woochoo Registered

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    I was totally unable to drive the Skip Barber when it was first released. Then after a few years of driving mostly Historics, I loaded the Skip Barber on Sebring and had what I'll restate as one of my most fantastic sim driving experiences. The point there is that the historics must've helped me learn the same lessons/skills and I instantly felt at home in the Skip Barber, despite completely failing the previous time I'd driven it.
    I wasn't necessarily driving the Skip Barber at optimum pace, but I sure was throwing and sliding it from bump to bump with a lot of confidence in the feedback and my pedal inputs. Most enjoyable :)
     
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