Why is the Skip Barber so difficult if it's supposed to be a noob car?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by momoracer, Jan 7, 2018.

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  1. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    Ok, I don't share that view of talent. Regardless, cars like the skip and vee can help people learn to drive better, whether they're completely 'untalented' or just need a bit of a helping hand to get started. If you think that some people are just so naturally talented that it's a waste of time to drive these cars (or their lessons are already instinctive) I can accept that it's not useful for those people. But they would be quite rare people, so cars like these have a place (when used properly).

    Personally I think that while some people may have more natural aptitude for something, skills need to be learned in some way regardless. Everyone* can walk, for example, but the process of learning to walk takes everyone (everyone!) quite a bit of time. Falling over the first time doesn't mean you'll always fall over.

    *obvious exceptions, but speaking generally...
     
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  2. Bernd

    Bernd Registered

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    I want to add a short anecdote to this discussion, that shows another aspect of "sim" racing.
    A long while ago, i was a member of an online racing community.
    The most users there were 30-50 years old and as always, some were faster than others.
    But we had really good and fast people, that have won championships of other communities too.
    At one point, a son of one of the users, joined some of our running online championships.
    And what can i say, he was faster than all the old and experienced sim drivers.
    His age: 14 Years and of course he did never drive a real car.
    If he was aksed why he can be so fast, he did say that he don't know it, he is just driving.
    And also his father did say that he don't know it.
    He is watching his son driving, but can not say why he is so fast.
    Maybe it was the fact, that he did not drive the car like a real car, because he didn't know how a real car can be driven, he simply treated it like every other video game.
     
  3. Comante

    Comante Registered

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    Me too, it's not about talent if you put someone on a kart at 3yo and another at 11. It's just 8 year more experience in an age where brain and body develop in function of the environment it is exposed to. Yes someone can born with what we call a talent, like absolute earing, a better than normal motor coordination , or over average intelligence or speech.
    Being a proficient driver is not god gift, without training and correct learning, you will never break the comfort zone of your actual skill level.
    Trainer cars are needed to experience in a scaled down environments (slower speed) thus safer environments, the mechanical and dinamic limits of racing cars. I think they are very useful , of course not everyone will learn something, people whose skill level is already higher than what is supposed to be for those trainers can simply dedicate themselves to something more demanding.
     
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  4. Comante

    Comante Registered

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    Bernd, I'm about 20 years into medieval fencing, and the simple truth is that aging slow our reaction times, make less precise our reactions, make repeating over and over the same moves less exact, lenghten our learning times (like learning a track or improving a setup). For many aspect of life, we can compensate with experience, than can allow us to predict a possible outcome and act anticipating our neural lag. But for some activities you simply cannot cope, the younger are more risk friendly, faster,... simply better.
    There is a reason if F1 is the place for boys and not for elders.
     
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  5. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    Interesting is that often people don't know when they're understeering, and instinctively (oops, used that word!) turn the wheel more in an effort to keep turning faster. Of course the limit of grip has already been surpassed and no more turning happens, but they keep turning that wheel regardless. I've seen it countless times in sim racing, and I imagine the same thing happens when people exceed grip limits in real life when they have no experience of driving in those situations.

    Sometimes long experience (turn wheel, car turns; turn wheel more, car turns faster) can actually give false feedback and lessons that then fail in more extreme situations. Driving fast is all about what happens at the limits, yet many people never reach those limits with normal driving. These slow but inherently unstable cars force you to that edge without requiring large speeds.

    You can practice for countless hours and not learn anything, or you can get some targeted practice and learn a lot. I think these cars encourage the latter, but of course they can only teach certain things. If you know them already (and have practiced enough, or are talented enough, or fell into good habits) they won't teach much you don't already know.
     
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  6. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    Yes especially as the modern racecars probably depends on drivers reaction times more than ever. All the skill, experience depending stuff is usually not the problem because cars don't have such problems anymore, has various systems, are overplanted and underpowered for the amount of grip they have, and they are also super responsive it is like old car could respond 10times per second to drivers input, and modern one could make it to 100times per second. Ironically cars seems naturally evolve in such way that they are slowly pushing away the challenges, will eventually push away human drivers, because it will not be possible for a man to use the potential anymore due to shear reaction challenge, unless rules will find a way how to make cars more challenging while staying true to the principle of pushing the technology forward, which at some point seems to be creating a conflict.

    After all this new generation of racers will not understand cars that have basic handling problems, they will just not make sense for them, I think it is already how it is. Thats the mentality if car oversteer, understeer, spin wheels or anything like that happens it is not their business, car has to be improved for them.

    I had a chart of reaction times for a ruler drop test. There was average reaction times listed for different ages, it goes down from 17-18 years old. But I think it could be trained. I can't look for it now, but it was something like just under 200ms for 18years old, and then goes up like 10ms a year... But ruler drop test is for visual conscious reaction, which is most important, but it does not take great deal of subconscious processing. Reactions to other cues like proprioception or audio are quicker than that iiric, but they are less apparent, they are also processed subconsciously iiric, also only small amount of vision is processed consciously. By the way 200ms is something like 6meters of travel at 100km/h.
     
  7. roszman

    roszman Registered

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    And that's why Skib Barber is so difficult to drive :p
     
  8. Korva7

    Korva7 Registered

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    Also reaction time for sensing stuff related to movement and location in space should be faster from peripheral vision compared to central vision.
    So i think trying to sense the movement of the car with the peripheral vision would make sense.
     
  9. memoNo1

    memoNo1 Registered

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    I also recommend the book by Ross Bentley.
    One of my favorite quotes from him is:

    "Focus your eyes where you want to go, not where you don’t want to go or where you are"

    It helped me a lot in its simple language. For the Vee I can only say to the real Sim Racing there is no better option to learn. I never drove Skippy myself .

    I've only been driving KartSim or the Vee for the last few weeks. Meanwhile, I hold at constant 100% against AI with .

    Sometimes pictures say more than 1000 words. See how to be danced with the babe Vee in order to keep her in a good mood .



    Please forgive my bad english.
     
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  10. LokiD

    LokiD Registered

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    Medieval fencing..interesting

    I do normal fencing and have done since I've been 8. Won a few competitions plus been UK national champion at 18. Now I'm 41 and even though I still have a fencing brain so to speak my body can't keep up with the quick young fencers of today and it's Almost a different way to fence then I did back then. There's no substitute for experience but when the body and mind is young it can learn at a great rate

    Suppose when I started the veterans saw something in me as I was starting to beat them at an early age. But the talent is from within also my dad did it and I believe like most racing sons and fathers the talent is handed down
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2019
  11. MarcG

    MarcG Member

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    I'd not played RF2 in a few weeks, lost my sim racing mojo what with all the hot summer days and using VR in that heat wasn't appealing!

    But then today i skimmed through this thread and the urge bit back to fire the old girl up, i selected the Skippy with National tires and Donington (short/chicane version) with 24AI.

    What happened next is the mojo came flying through the open window back into my soul, after a few laps of reacquainting myself with the old girl (its been a long long time) I found myself handling the car with almost semi-amateur precision, catching slides, countering understeer, throwing the thing through the chicane with a ruddy great grin on my face! Everything i had once forgotten about this car came flooding, it was once hard to master but years of sim experience have taught me well and I'm having a blast.

    Sure this car is not for the faint hearted, as much as it teaches you about car control you need to learn her intricacies first and then your mind overloads with information that she feeds you.

    That there is the reason it was used (probably still is) as a Real Racing Drivers tool, to teach them intricate details on car control whilst as Sim Racers were learn the same but have a blast doing it.

    Enjoy this motor, learn from her and your driving will improve.
     
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  12. memoNo1

    memoNo1 Registered

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    I'm actually pretty tired. But thanks to this delicious anecdote I feel like driving now!
    :cool::p
     
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  13. MarcG

    MarcG Member

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    There's of course loads of tracks but man, just had an absolute blast against the AI round Guapore (Reiza Bundle Track), 3 wide round turns, battles, sideways action, immense fun!
     
  14. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    Guapore is epic for momentum cars :)
     
  15. memoNo1

    memoNo1 Registered

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    I had a similar experience yesterday in Virginia Raceway (also Reiza Pack) with the Viper from the URD Endurance Pack. AI at 100% and a 20 minute race.
    I made the second fastest lap!
    What an experience.
    And that only thanks to the training with the Vee. I think Vee or Skippy there is not much difference. They are both hell machines and true divas.

    But that's the only way to learn!

    Without these vehicles, I would not have managed this achievement yesterday.
     
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  16. J853

    J853 Registered

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    I tried the iracing skip barber and the rfactor skip barber back to back at Suzuka.

    They really do feel different, the main difference I can feel is that the rfactor one seems to have a lot less grip (even on the race tyres). Both seem to have exaggerated weight transfer effects (which is, I beleive realistic).

    I wonder what the main cause of this difference is, maybe setup, track conditions or maybe one of the simulations is just far off the real car? It would be interesting to see the validation they do!
     
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  17. avenger82

    avenger82 Registered

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    I also notice big differences in same car's handling between sims. I will have to try iRacing's Skippy soon, but tried AC's mod and it was much easier and "stable" than in rF2. Even Formula Vee is much more difficult in rF2(mostly oversteer) than in AMS, despite both were done by Reiza(although I'm not sure if rF2 version was done by Neils). Maybe F. Vee in AMS is not the Brazilian version(I doubt it)?
     
  18. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    Well thats expected from AC mod... I didn't try it though, but I expect sweet handling from there, possibly too sweet.

    rF2 Skippy and Vee doesn't feel very difficult to me, either, feels right.

    As much as I have tried iRacing, they seem to tend use the most grippy tire they can get, or something like that. They even has butchered the Lotus 49 by doing that. IDK how you find it easier, I find it harder, because you have a vehicle chassis which can accept particular loads before it starts loosing predictable precision handling, and put tires on it that can take more than a chassis, then you get actually rather edgy stuff going on on the limit, because chassis does not keep tires so steady, and tire having a lot grip will naturally also snap off harder, but of course you can manipulate physics parameters in such way that eve nsliding tire wouldn't cause much problem. I didn't try iR for a year though, iiric they have bumped up tire model for skippy iiric.

    I have too little time spent on AMS, but I did have an online race with VEE there, and it felt quite edgy there too, and I felt that I have to respect the car before I can push it harder. Vee doesn't feel as edgy to me in rF2 as in first tries, I don't know if that is because little tweaks that they have done, or just me getting used to it better, because getting used to the car "changes its physics" :D
     
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  19. juanchioooo

    juanchioooo Registered

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    I love both cars, for me they are perfect:);):D
     
  20. avenger82

    avenger82 Registered

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    I don't know how you can say Vee in rF2 is not that difficult. When you push it, it's very hard to catch slide, and difficult to be competitive in general with H pattern shiftier. Only very small overstter can be corrected, which is not the case in AMS. Unless you tried different setup.
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2019
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