I've been think about this a lot lately, and if I'm totally honest with myself, I don't think I ever driven a sim car to it's limits. I don't even think I know how. And I've been sim racing since for almost 10yrs. Tim made a great post in another thread about this and I had never really thought about it before. Because I've been sim racing for so long and because I've tried just about every sim that's been made, I've always thought I was a pretty good judge of what a "realistic" sim car should "feel" like... But in reality, I don't think I'm qualified to "judge" any sim car So I just trust ISI has the real world data and will make changes if/when necessary.
Hmmm...I believe that some cars feel like they start "dancing" on grip limits too early-on if that makes any sense. Sometimes some low-grip cars feel too sloppy - yes, old, bad, low-grip tyres are supposed to be, well, old, bad, and low total grip, but as long as you're driving relatively within those limits then they can still feel pretty direct and "grippy" to a certain extent though, obviosuly. Low grip, and tyres that can tolerate higher slip angles doesn't have to mean sloppy and super slidey once you are starting to get into the tyres slip angle. RF2 has hugely improved in this area over anything rF1 based though. I think it may have to do with how the tyre wants to "bite" into the ground and what is going on with that "bite" - physics wise - while the tyre is starting to slip more and while it's starting to slip less (regaining grip). It's a VERY difficult thing though to just sit here and say for sure that this is an issue because sometimes I don't get that feeling. It can depend on the car, even the setup. In-fact, it can even depend on FFB; FFB unfortunately can make physics sometimes seem wrong when they may in-fact be correct, and vice-versa as well, FFB can make physics seem correct when they may in-fact be wrong. FFB can really influence us wrongly in both ways. To me though, physics-wise overall, rF2 is superior to AC. Remember, issues (or perceived issues) are 100x easier to spot when they make the driving more difficult than when they make the driving more easy/simplistic . It's so easy for people to spout their mouths and say "the car wasn't supposed to do this, it wasn't supposed to do that, it was too wild, too difficult, that shouldn't happen, did you see that?!" etc, but it's much, much more difficult for someone to say something like "you see there, while I lifted the throttle just that but more - combined with how I applied the steering - the car should have behaved more lively and slightly more sensitively to my inputs, but it didn't". It's 100x easier to spot something when it sticks out/happens than when it SHOULD have happened but didn't. Also, we drive the cars in sims much harder than in real-life. Cars can do VERY, VERY tricky things in real-life, including my parents' stock 2006 Toyota Corolla . The thing is is that most of us hardly ever, if at all, put ourselves in these driving situations, and we therefore don't experience these extremely tricky and sensitive behavior traits. In real-life people always think they are pushing the car hard just because they pound down on the brakes or hammer the throttle down or crank the steering wheel more and experience more lateral or longitudinal g's than usual, they may even get some lockup and wheelspin. I've seen this again and again a million times when working at a track for a year. These guys then think that they are really pushing the car hard and are close to the limits when in-fact they are like 5 seconds off the pace (5 seconds on a 1:00-ish lap, so lets say 8 seconds on a more "normal" 1:30s lap). The problem is that they aren't actually braking anywhere close to as late as the vehicle can, and they just aren't carrying a lot of speed on entry and throughout the corner, they just aren't going as fast as they think they are and as the car can go due to, i'd say, the following 3 things: 1. being scared and not being able to believe that the car can even go around a corner at those "ridiculous" speeds 2. feeling some very sensitive and nervous behavior just starting to creep in every so slightly from the car which makes the driver back off as they can sense this "loss of control" rather than "push" through it and go even faster 3. technique - some people may drive through a corner very quick - like a mental maniac with no sense of car/grip feel whatsoever - and then often loose the car big-time because of the proper and required ways of applying throttle/brake/steering inputs needed in order to A. make the car do things once you are in a certain range of it's grip limits, and B. make the car not do "bad" things while in a certain range of it's grip limits etc. etc. Getting corner-entry oversteer at 130 Km/h (slow as hell in sims) in a "safe", family roadcar like a 2006 Toyota Corolla, while not even cranking the wheel or doing any aggressive or "stupid" movements with the throttle/brake/steering, would be considered by many as things like "wrong", "why do people think that harder is always more realistic", etc. etc. They would then play another "sim" where this vehicle behavior doesn't happen (or is much, much harder to provoke) and they would then think that is the correct behavior just because they've never experienced oversteer while driving through a highway on-ramp in their lives. Their judgment and conclusion would therefore be all screwed up with regards to which sim is actually closer to reality.
Joe, even assuming that two completely different simulations are accurate enough to return the same experimental results, the number of unknown variable in the experiment is so high that it's impossibile to state which of the simulation return the greatest experimental error. The variable that you don't know are a lot, but one is enough to make your house of cards fall : which friction koefficient has been attributed to the track? How can you know the amount of rubber in that turn in both simulations ? And what about car setup? Fuel amount ? asphalt/tire temperature ? Look, if you think one is better, good for you, but unless you have some solid data to base your opinion, then it's just that.. your opinion, the error is to pretend that is the right one.
No accident, no spin, nothing trashed. Just explaining 99.999999% of the time that people AS WELL AS ME drive our cars, the handling is fairly stable and simple. Even when we push the car (or feel like we are). However, when you "really" start pushing those limits (things that should be left for the race-track, beyond just "fast" street driving) then even very safe mannered, "boring", understeer-setup roadcars can start behaving very tricky, skittish and sensitive. Many people don't seem to understand this and would never believe that some of these vehicle behavior traits in some sims are actually realistic because these experiences - like getting corner-entry oversteer, in a safe, well mannered, "boring" roadcar, without any harsh throttle/brake/steering inputs - are extremely rare.
AC tires have a great feel on the road and what seems like perfect entry bite (from personal feeling and personal feedback from a couple of drivers developing other games).
Do you have a replay of a clean lap ? It's better to share in realtime, what about meeting online ? From what i see in your video http://youtu.be/VzBytcq72kU 1- in corner entry you're overturning the wheel, doing it while coasting a FR lead to a spin because of the low downforce in rear. 2- in exit you bring back the wheel too late, if you gas too much--> wheelspin 3- when racing it's either gas or brake 4- Your wheel should move with the seat.
The topic is already old whith the upcoming next builds i guess. I already had the feeling with the last updates, the cars will change and tend to be very grippy. Save your breath and wait. Gesendet von meinem GT-I9300 mit Tapatalk
I agree. No offense, but 99% of any issues in those particular videos (I watched everyone where you actually drive real-time, not the replay or A.I. ones) lie almost purely in your driving regardless of sim/physics engine being used.
Thanks guys for your replies. I re-downloaded the Corvette C6r GT2 1.49 now seem better. I am going to delete all my GT files and re-download them. Yes, my old Fanatec Porsche turbo S wheel indeed does feel odd sometime. I am on the waiting list of first batch of AccuForce wheel. My drive skill not that good (dont have too much time to play, though), my videos do embarrass myself indeed. I do need help to change some settings in order to increase sensation of speed. Currently, at >100+ mph, I feel like ~50 mph. My TV sets are up to only 60Hz fresh rate. Help?
Any discussions or advice on driving,, I got just the thread for you http://isiforums.net/f/showthread.p...ques-Setups-Telemetry-Replays-Help-Advice-Etc Sensation of speed is a difficult one. I would advise triple screens but you already have that. Camera/cockpit/environment shake, vibrations, rattles, bounces, etc. make a HUGE difference to speed sensation (rFactor 1 gave me the best and closest overall experience to real life when it came to speed sensation even in slow cars like the rTrainer/skippy), however you may not want to increase the shake/movement as some people seem to dislike all that stuff (since "locking on" to an object can't be done when looking at a screen like in real-life due to your inner ear senses). Other than that, the only other thing that would increase your sense of speed would be to go with 3D. You would have to get 3D capable screens, projectors, or a 3D VR headset like the Oculus Rift. The 3D will allow you to feel your speed much more. It will allow you to feel how far away you are from things much better, and will drastically improve your sense of closing-in speed to other objects/cars/corners/buildings/etc. You will gain a much better perception of depth/distance and closing speeds, even to other car when battling them. This will also allow you to "feel" the speed at which to enter corners in much better. Oh you can also increase your FOV if you want at the risk of visual distortion. Moving your eyes/head closer to your monitors will allow you to use a higher FOV - giving you more peripheral vision and therefore a higher sense of speed - without visually affecting any distortion. You have quite the sim-racing setup there, you should really look into getting triple gaming, low input lag, 120/144 Hz, Nvidia 3D Vision capable monitors, or at least 120/144 Hz 2D "gaming" monitors. Not only do most 60 Hz monitors (including the top "gaming" ones) have more input lag than 120 Hz models (especially "gaming" models), but 90% of TVs have absolutely atrocious input lag and have even way more than 60 Hz monitors, let alone 120/144 Hz "gaming" model monitors. I can almost bet you my life that you will notice an improvement in your driving when going from triple 60 Hz televisions to triple 120/144 Hz "gaming" PC monitors. If I had to choose, I would probably even do the monitor upgrade before even the Accuforce wheel (those TVs will be an issue no matter how amazing your wheel is, whereas you can tend to get away much more with a "cheaper" wheel if you have low-latency monitors). Can't wait to see videos of your new wheel, give us as much thoughts/feedback as you can
Love your rig Joe !! First thing I see without considering any of your controller settings or game settings is the line your driving.. Use as much track as possible and try and make your turns a lot smoother ,you seem to be double and triple apexing corners that should be a single turn angle and the use of your feet controlling the rest.
There is a lot of talk how to control what and that it is primarily up to you in the first place if you claim there is something wrong with the vehicle (which is standard in this community), but unfortunately it seems most have no idea of cars and the physical laws of and blind faith, believe what they told about was correct, and the better no matter what status the vehicles had they were perfect from day one and who seem can't use it or don't believe always the one who is wrong. However, I'm not sure whether the previous update is the reason for but I have the feeling the load distribution works better, at least with the corvette I have tested recently, which is much more believable for me now. I previously had in some situations the feeling to have a weight distribution of 80% front to 20% rear, especially by load distribution for example when braking for and entering a corner under load/throttle. This pendulum effect and nailed front where the rotational axis was shifted to the front axle is almost eliminated now, and with this the hypersensitive tail has disappeared as well and you have to push the car much more to be fast. I'm sure some will be shocked how much grip such a vehicle can generate and how it actually behaves now, while it has a much more common behavioral for a car. I almost suppose it is the bodywork/chassis flex causes this change or has an influence on, and this is a good progress in my opinion.
Agree speed , just did a few hours in the vette and the balance through corners and especially high speed corners is now a lot better, on the edge very little wheel input and minor right foot control to get a lovely drift angle and yaw. A pleasure to drive
Yes. I find myself turning one lap after one......., around Lime R. without to beeing much under pressure to keep the car on track, while i had no problems to controle the previous WIP car, but this WIP version feels already much more complete. Gesendet von meinem GT-I9300 mit Tapatalk
ran new Corvette GT and Nissan GTR on Silverstone (driven by same AI). I took some telemetry data. Here are snap shoot of last two laps of runs: Corvette GT: View attachment 14210 Nissan GTR: View attachment 14211 the Nissan pretty impressive. Lateral-G over 2. Rear grip is better. I deleted the previous GT files. How can I download older version GT cars? I like to compare to see.
In my humble opinion you are looking at the wrong things, it would be more useful to concentrate on throttle, brake and steering until you are doing consistent lap times, all the other data is a result of those 3 inputs. I think if you looked at those 3 inputs you would be a little surprised and can easily spot areas where improvement is possible. If you post the telemetry shots of those channels I am happy to offer constructive advice if you would like.
I think you might misunderstand this. those are NOT my driving. It is nothing to do with my driving skill. they are driven by same AI. A good Sim shall be able to be judged by an objective way (consistent way) --- in this case an AI driver. The data present evidence that Nissan GT-R better (higher lateral-g, less slipping in tire friction, etc)...Same way one can prove if latest GT car indeed is better then previous one or not....if we can compare the data.
