Three major short-comes of rF2 cars

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Joe, Sep 1, 2014.

  1. Joe

    Joe Registered

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    After trying latest AC cars and comparing with rF2 cars, I have to say there are three major short-comes of rF2 cars in terms of dynamic response and behavior:

    1) extremely easy to spin off (very easy to loss rear grip while oversteering).
    2) lack of speed sense of cars;
    3) lack of braking power sense.

    No offend here, only my honest feedback. wish ISI will address them. I am long time fan of rF2.
     
  2. PRC Steve

    PRC Steve Registered

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  3. Jamie Shorting

    Jamie Shorting Registered

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    I don't understand number two or three but I absolutely 100% disagree with number one. No offense but maybe rF2 isn't for you if that is the case. *shrug*.


    Edit: The usual names who only post here to say "rf2 sucks" will fill up this thread, no doubt. ;)


    Wasn't ISI accused recently of "noobing cars"? Boy, ISI is damned if they do, damned if they don't I guess around here.
     
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  4. Marc Collins

    Marc Collins Registered

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    After spending some time in AC this weekend after being away from it for a while, I can conclude several things:

    1) The excessive rear grip and "magic traction control" in AC makes cars so easy to drive that one might be scared of real dynamics should they try them.
    2) The graphics in AC do give a nice sensation of speed...especially as you are dodging AI cars that are bobbing and weaving at half your speed.
    3) The sensation of braking in AC is very nice...though it is unrealistically easy due to excessive grip (see #1 also)

    That being said, rF2 does and always has suffered from a seeming lack of rear weight and grip. Sometimes this can be helped a bit by cranking up the FFB, but I suspect the upcoming tire contact patch update will cure it. Some cars are less affected than others, but let's be honest, unless you have top quality controller equipment, enough graphics horsepower to keep things above 60 FPS and a skilled/experienced right foot, rF2 will make you cry when you realize you are not as skilled as you thought you were.

    By the way, try the Indycar in rF2 that has serious issues with throttle response. It's almost impossible to spin the thing unless you are deliberately going crazy because the power is so dulled by whatever bogus throttle mapping is used. That car will also be updated to be more realistic, but if you find the current one too skittish, then you will likely never "get" rF2 or any sim that is trying for realism.
     
  5. MikeeCZ

    MikeeCZ Registered

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    Hehe, i feel exactly like his about AC..There is totally no FFB braking feel in AC, or understeering feel or simply loosing grip in any way, except that my SW starts to suddenly vibrate like a PS3 controller.

    I do have sence of speed in rF2, for me rf2 is very very immersive

    And cars that are supposed to be easy to drift are easy to drift, high downforce high grip cars are not supposed to be easy to drift, so they are not easy to drift. Only AC makes the cars easy to drift to make it more fun, atleast thats how i see it
     
  6. Marc Collins

    Marc Collins Registered

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    You may be right about the overall grip level and have spent more time and effort to figure it out than I have.

    With that, can you clarify whether the new FR3.5 is better, worse or the same as the DW12 in your view?

    And lastly, do you think the DW12 has that muted a throttle response in real life? I described elsewhere that it feels like a gigantic flywheel is attached to the engine (once a gear is engaged, because you can rev it normally in neutral) preventing any kind of sharp response. Will Power wishes the car had such dull response when he spun at Sonoma last weekend!
     
  7. bwana

    bwana Registered

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    1) extremely easy to spin off (very easy to loss rear grip while oversteering). = either decrease Throttle sensitivity or practise more your right foot work

    2) lack of speed sense of cars;= Change your FOV.and or mod of choice

    3) lack of braking power sense.= decrease your brake pressure as your probably locking up be realistic with stopping distance
     
  8. peterchen

    peterchen Registered

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    I donĀ“t even wonder about point 1.) which will be the first complaint about rF2.

    But no sense of speed???????????? You must be kidding!
    And AC offers a better sense for speed?? Hard to believe.....
    Maybe you should tweak your FOV, but I remember a few weeks ago in a german forum where someone complaints rF2 would run at double or triple speed. Later it turned out that the sense of speed was simply much higher than in the other games he tried.
     
  9. smithaz

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    I think these are all things that come to you after experience with the game. I feel the same way if I jump on another game for an hour or even with new cars on rF2
     
  10. realkman666

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    Strangest comment I've seen here. xD
    One is on edge no matter what, the other one has almost zero wheelspin in 2nd gear.
     
  11. Marc Collins

    Marc Collins Registered

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    I have little to no issue with overall grip in the DW12. Just the lack of throttle response. Thanks for the rest of the explanation!
     
  12. hexagramme

    hexagramme Member

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    What is to follow is just my personal view on the matter.
    I accept the fact that my opinion isn't the only valid opinion in the whole world.
    I'm not telling you what to like and what not to like.
    So...

    I was struggling with rear wheel spin in rF2 for a long time...
    That is, until I actually trashed my old arcade habit of mashing the throttle on exits.
    There's tons and tons of grip in rF2, if you know how to use the throttle properly.
    I hardly ever spin anymore, even when pushing like hell.
    Throttle control, clever usage of rubber on track, clever lines, good setups... You'll never run out of rear grip.

    For a little while AC actually had me fooled, after the last big update.
    Massive ffb, tons of movement, quite nice for a while. But after a while it just feels so artificial and stale.
    Like in every car feel alike. FFB during braking feels awful and rips me out of the little immersion I have up until that point.
    Artificial rumbling and shaking.
    The bad FFB only serves to confuse and make me insecure. It's so counterintuitive it's not even funny.
     
  13. Hectari

    Hectari Registered

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    I remember my first drive in the DW12, I was just getting familiar with it and not pushing, not even to the rev limiter and I was driving around online like a snail with everyone overtaking me as if I was in a different class. That is, until it dawned on me to keep the revs up as much as possible since that is where all the power must be, and it is. The power curve is extremely steep, something I think that people must not realise when they talk about how slugglish it is and I can't see that ISI could have got it massively wrong so it's not likely to change much.

    So just how steep is the power curve? Well, at about 8,000rpm I find the car to be around 290hp, about 460hp at 10,000rpm and almost at the 12k rev limit it's producing in the region of 650hp. At 6,000rpm the engine is producing just under 200hp! 4,000rpm? Less that 120hp. Think about that the next time you bog down. Gearing and the use of it is critical in this car. Oh and the torque curve peaks not far behind the peak power too, also with a steep curve up the rev range, so that's why you're most likely to only really suffer with wheelspin with higher revs if you're driving it properly.

    ps. Figures from motec. Also looked at the power curve in CarStat 2 but it's a bit different to what I found in my data so not sure if it's accurate, still very steep with a similar curve to what I found with a test though.
     
  14. DurgeDriven

    DurgeDriven Banned

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    UTTER BS on all counts

    I drive F3 ...I am, part of the car


    loool
     
  15. Spinelli

    Spinelli Banned

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    1) This can sometimes feel like it's happening. Sometimes when you wish to put some throttle down in order to plant the rear, it just doesn't feel like it plants down, it just feels very light and "airy" almost as if your car is being slightly lifted in the air like in those car control driving schools where they have those small training-wheel looking things attached to the car on each corner so that the car is slightly elevated in the air which makes it easy to slide around for inexperienced people in order to practice driving in loss-of-control situations. I was feeling a bit of this in the FR 3.5 the other day. It's only during heavy lateral load (in a heavy turning state). You can help out the situation by giving the car softer rear slow-bump dampers (shock absorbers) in the setup, but that can introduce too much understeer from the rear planting too much.

    It's like you can't lean on the rear-end while on power while in a heavy cornering state, especially with very short gear ratios. Then, once you are fully straight you can hammer the throttle and be on your way off.

    Believe it or not, this may not even have to do with tyres, suspension, aero, etc. physics, it may be have to do with the engine (vehicle motor itself) physics. Many cars in ISI engine based sims, (including Game Stock Car, which I'm a huge fan of by the way) have this very, VERY messed up throttle response thing going on. Stop your car, put it in neutral (or hold in clutch) and try to precisely just get to a certain RPM with your throttle. It's almost impossible! The throttle will just keep rising and rising even though you are only giving a little bit of throttle. Then you give it less throttle but the revs still keep rising and rising, until you finally left off the throttle enough but then the RPM will just fall back to idle. It's like engine RPMs are an on/off button, they can't just be held at a certain RPM, they are always either trying to rise or fall. In real life, even in cars with super, super light flywheels and super quick throttle response, you can still easily hold different RPMs while in neutral. You can hear it easily in F1 while the cars are stopped and getting ready to take off, videos of cars being revved while stopped, etc.

    That may actually be the problem that's causing what many have noticed, at times, with ISI engine based cars. It may actually be an engine (vehicle motor itself) issue, which gives the impression of a tyre/suspension/aero etc. physics issue, rather than an actual tyre/suspension/aero. Get in a car and try it out yourselves guys, you'll see exactly what I mean, especially within the lower 3/4s of the RPM range.

    I'm obviously not the only one to have noticed this rear-end trait over the years, or the engine RPM trait. I never thought/heard about linking the two together though, I'm really starting to wonder if I'm on to something here......

    2) Sensation of speed is mostly due to the movement values of the cockpit, scenery/environment, and eyepoint/camera, oh and FOV of course. These can be edited in the vehicle files and the player.json file to be as "crazy" as real-life and rF1, or as terrible and boring (sleep fest) as iRacing (iRacing has the absolute worst visual driving experience, just terrible, what a disgrace to what real-life drivers go through). Disregarding any editing, stock vs stock there is absolutely no way that rFactor 2 has less sensation of speed than Assetto Corsa, it's not even a tie. rFactor 2 easily wins here. Can you give me a particular car example? There seems to be some discrepancy across cars with regards to the "style" of visual movements, for example, the rF2 Clio is very static and boring visually speaking, but in general, the rF2 cars, at least to me, have way more speed sensation than the AC cars. Also, I hardly see anyone ever complain about rF2 speed sensation, but I've seen, and continue to see, many people complaining about it in the AC forums....

    3) Not sure what you mean here, I'm assuming you mean that it's hard to sense how much brake you are using, for example it's hard to tell (other than just sensing where your foot is) how much or little brake you are applying. Not really sure though, so I won't comment on this one.


    AC does a few things generally better than rF2, but on the other hand AC does even more things worse than not only rF2 but even Netkar Pro (AC's predecessor)
     
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  16. P.S.R.

    P.S.R. Registered

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    I have zero real life experience in race cars but will say that I can do hundreds of laps in rF2 merely testing because there seems to be limitless opportunities to improve and things to try. I have never done that in any other sim. In rF2 I do it all the time even when I am just practicing and not even optimizing setups.

    Edit - I should clarify that I only drive historic vehicles.

    Edit #2 - I should also add that I have no idea what issue with rear grip is. I never have problems with rear grip and always change default setup to eliminate ridiculous understeer of default setups. My primary vehicles are T280 and Spark F1 and almost never spin ever even when making incredibly stupid mistakes and pushing ridiculously hard and wrecklessly so whatever it is you guys are talking about I think you should always clarify modern vs. historic.
     
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  17. Marc Collins

    Marc Collins Registered

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    Well, if those are the real HP numbers for the DW12, then it makes sense it has such dull response. I will go try it while keeping the revs up like in full race mode.

    EDIT: Nope, this car does not have realistic throttle response when in gear. Period. Or, if I am wrong, then every other ISI car needs to have a gigantic overhaul to bring it into line with this one. I just cannot believe that a monkey bashing the throttle pedal like a toy results in maintaining full control of the car. It is almost impossible to get the back end to step out even a bit, let alone induce a spin. Not what I see every week when watching the races. Not how the drivers describe driving these beasts. Total opposite of every other car in ISI (I mean similar, modern open wheelers).

    By the way, do we know what the real HP and torque curve looks like on these things?
     
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  18. hexagramme

    hexagramme Member

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    I must say "true dat" man.
    I've never been more immersed than in this sim. I'm literally in another world when racing any car.

    I don't want to rely on weird gimmicky physics to keep the rear in check, kinda like it feels in AC.
    If I abuse the throttle I expect to be punished. End of story. Learn to control the throttle, then the spinning obviously stops.
    Not trying to be a douche here, just saying... If the rear tends to go away, don't count on it being the sim that's somehow wrong.
    When I spun all the time for the first few months I knew it was me doing it all wrong somehow.
    I changed my driving, and voila. No more spinning all the time.

    I also don't rely on flashy, fancy, blurry gfx to trick me into thinking I'm going faster than I am.
    I got all the sense of speed I need, even in lower powered cars like the F3.

    Again, I respect your opinions OP, but I really don't share them.
     
  19. Joe

    Joe Registered

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    Thanks for your reply. I have no real-life experience on race/track, although I owned several sports cars in the past (still keep one) and own a motion simulator.
    My view is purely subjective.

    On 1), my comparison between rF2 and AC might not be fair. I meant to rF2 with TC off. But somehow I could not figure out how to turn off AC car's TC. I only compared GT/stock cars between rF2 and AC. Glad you feel the same on this issue. Simple test you can do is to run over side road (on the grass) and then try to take off back to the track, with TC off. Now, you will see the problem.

    On 3), run both rF2 and AC cars towards to side wall of a track, now try to stop the car. This comparison testing will demonstrate an issue I stated.

    Regards,
     
  20. Guimengo

    Guimengo Guest

    On the Dallara, are opinions being stated on the default setup of 24-41 wings? It's extremely understeery.
     

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