Kidding? So you think seriously that in rF2 in general (like it´s an issue with the physics engine) the tyre slip is too high? And loony??? Jamie you are right,- let them be....
Same engine, it's just that some of us recognize a problem and appreciate it when it's fixed, instead of saying everything is fine all the time even as things change dramatically. It's like 1984 in here. I don't know what they did, but the new GT cars are exactly how I've always wanted them, so they must have been doing things differently in the last few weeks. The DW12 update and NASCAR will hopefully confirm their new attitude.
No, you're right, it's perfect right now. It was also perfect a year ago when it was different, and it will be perfect once the other cars are updated like the GT cars in a few weeks.
Mate you can not rev Howston in garage to find out if you gas pedal is working or not, you must test Howston on the track when driving, if you do this I bet you find out that 20% gas is 20%, 30% is 30%..... and 100% is 100%, if i not your hardware (pedals) is not working as they should.
Even those with "real life experience" ahem, think slicks should behave like street tires? Progressively breaking loose, expecting they should be able to drift easily with slicks? The new torro rosso driver recently bumped a tire wall while trying to get his tires to break loose. Slicks aren't made for drifting, they want to grip, and when they don't, nothing too progressive about it. I don't think ISI fitted their mods with street tires. Is the tire model perfect? ISI says it is not finished and I hope they don't dumb it down. Track driving at the limit on Street tires is a handful at high speed. Not a big deal to slide the tail of a sports car on a slow turn but get going over 70mph or so and it isn't the same dance partner it was at 35mph. Even for those of us with plenty of real track time. Slicks bring it up another level. I do enjoy the oft stated drift comparisons to a crap econo car on all-weather tires. That isn't a handful, but modern sports cars have insane amounts of lateral grip. Night and day when a widebody Corvette starts to break loose its 325 section rears. @Joe, you keep a sports car, you have coin for a motion rig, fan of racing sims, no logical reason to not go do a local track day. Don't take a bunch of desk racer opinions, or mine, go form your own. You'll love it and you'll learn much more about your car and how it behaves at speed than you ever could on the road. If you are in the Southeast (US) I can recommend a couple good groups to go with. You will also have a greater appreciation of what rF2 offers. It is the closest I've found to a realistic sim but it is still overall easier than the real thing.
Yup, I've experienced this as well. I believe it all goes back to the same issue - as soon as the revs get a slight chance to rise (neutral, in gear with clutch pressed, going to a low grip surface, getting wheelspin, etc.) then something in the modelling of the vehicle's motor just makes/allows the revs to want to spike up much, much too quickly. An FR 3.5's engine doesn't sky rocket too redline and start bouncing off the limiter as if it's gone haywire just because you apply a tiny 15% of throttle. Watch videos of the car. It happens to different extents in just about every car too. 15% throttle at idle should not equal the revs blasting up to redline and bouncing off the limiter unless every car, from old to new, fast to slow, has the same, ridiculous throttle-power non-linear setup. I firmly believe that this insane throttle/torque spiking, while holding such tiny amounts of throttle, is contributing to a lot of overly "hairy" and "crazy" oversteer moments/issues. Holding a steady amount of very low throttle, or just raising that amount a tiny bit, can much, much too easily "encourage" the revs, and therefore wheel-slip, to just skyrocket up way too quickly as if you gave the car much more throttle than you did, at a much more powerful area of the engine's power curve. When your car gets in a state of slip on power, you can sometimes notice this because the revs (and therefore wheelspin) want to just shoot up too much and too quick. It's not a problem with my pedals. I've tested them enough in the control panel and in-game, plus you can see the exact input that the game translates my throttle inputs into with the pedal overlay plugin, it's a physics issue with the vehicle's motor modelling or something. I just saw Alonso, at the start, give the car from 0-30% throttle. The revs didn't skyrocket to 15,000 RPM and start bouncing of the limiter like it wae going to explode, the revs rose to around 12,000 RPM and stayed there. They didn't keep rising and rising, therefore Alonso didn't have to back off of the throttle and then get back on it slightly in order to prevent the revs from continuing to rise like in every rF car. He just simply apllied 30%, the revs went up to around 12,000, stopped climbing, steady throttle, steady revs, simple as that... I know, F1 with all their engine maps and technology...just watch other videos of other cars then.... It's not "normal" for a FR 3.5 to rev all the way from idle, to redline bouncing off the limiter, in lightning quick time, from just 15-20 % throttle for a second or so. No way, absolutely no way. Watch any video of any car - old, new, fast, slow, road, race.
Maybe engine inertia is too low? I remember playing with this some time ago and had a great impact on how quick the rpms raised.
Wow. I Will rephrase my question in direct terms. What does it means "exponential tyre slip"? Then we could talk about different sensibilities.
The sliding intensifies instead of being linear. Or maybe the other dude is right about only the rear tires being affected by a slide, which wrecks the grip balance right away.
Then your experience far exceeds my own and I've been doing track days for years. What track do you go to and what do you run, what group do you run with? Seems like the real pros around here are always lite on the details. Like skydiving it is a relatively small community at local tracks. Would love to see some video of you doing any sort of mild "drift" on slicks (on a real car not a go-cart) in the dry. I can take a lot of things on faith but this isn't one of them. Pushing my C6GS on street tires can be a scary experience. Put slicks on and then drift or control slide it, that is a level of skill PCA instructors don't have. An F1 pro can do amazing things but for the rest of us, drifting on slicks? Let's see it.
Bravo Paul, but it wouldn't surprise me if this still doesn't settle it At this point Spinelli you should be able to admit that you're wrong about revs in neutral. Each car might not be absolutely spot on but it's not plain wrong like you want to believe, race cars really do rev like this. You even thought you might get a different result with it in gear with the clutch disengaged and that shows that your knowledge around this area is not great. Another thing to consider is that in real race cars the amount of throw it takes to redline in neutral feels more substantial and a lot better than on the pedals a lot of us use, something Paul already mentioned. I know that most of everything i've ever driven has a lot more throw than my G25 throttle. This whole thing is not much different to the guy on here recently who was saying how wrong braking was in rF2, but really the source of the problem was his own hardware and the setup of it. It's all in your head man!
I just tried some practice starts with the Formula ISI...yep, once I was used to the car, it was easy to make a start exactly like the vids I saw of Alonso. Bit of throttle, revs up at 12k odd and held there and then a good getaway with minimal wheelspin. I would wonder about the real car having a rev limit at the start like that though, not proper launch control though. Like Hectari above, I cannot see anything here that is fundamentally wrong, as is seemingly implied. It would be hard to suss out the car to work with everyones pedals well and to everyones own feelings. That is why you can have some adjustments for sensitivity. The other thing I was wondering about...the way people talk about the F1 car spinning in the pits, low speeds, etc. Next time that happens, have a look at how quickly the thing picks up speed. I gently took off from the garage making sure I had no wheelspin, and the thing piles on speed faster than you think. You can cruise off with a bit of clutch slip and everything feeling real slow and in control, and the thing has started to hit the 100kph pit limiter in a few seconds or even less.
Sigh, Paul this was worse than expected. No track experience at all? Really? The internet never fails to live up to itself. And I certainly said if I can't do it no one can. Maybe when you get some free time from showing AP and Patek how it is done you can swing by a track day in your secret friend's Japanese race car and be a guest instructor. I'm sure it will be enlightening for everyone in the group given your very extensive logical experience. I'm sure you can run in our solo group with your theory skills. Just don't tell me about that vintage minute repeater you held in your hand once because, well, that would be too much. Bravo indeed. The real stupid here is me posting.
all i can say is about the pedals is my percentages throttle/ clutch/ brake are all on 0% for maximum peddle play otherwise its like spinelli is saying little application on the peddle meant high revs fast you can see the effect in game on the controller settings you hold 20 percent throttle and move the throttle slider at the same time from 0 % to 100 % and see how much more pressure gets applied but i always had my peddles set for 0 percent even in rf1 and never had issues with the clutch in rf2
Paul, in that video there is a point where you add just a tiny bit more throttle, and the revs skyrocket to over 17,000 RPM, (redline is 18,000). Try this. Don't play with the throttle. Just go quickly from 0% to 30, and hold it there, do not do any modulating. Just straight from 0% to 30%, hold. I was doing that in my videos (probably less than 30%, maybe 15 or 20 %) and the revs skyrocket to redline and start bouncing off the limiter, it blows my mind that people think this behavior is correct. About the video you asked for.. He extremely quickly goes from 0% to 30% (yes I know, it's not precise, but is a general indication), he doesn't need to modulate it, just bam straight from 0 to 30%, revs rise and stop around 12,000, done, simple as that. The RPMs don't continue rising and rising until the driver lets off and modulates the throttle like in rF2, and the revs don't blast off to the redline as if he's flooring the throttle like some maniac like in rF2 (unless you let off and modulate it like you need to do in rF2). Same thing in the above video. Throttle from 0 to around 30%. Revs from idle to 14000-ish (redline is 18000). Notice the 3 following things: 1. The revs don't keep rising and rising, it goes to a certain amount based on throttle position and almost instantly stops and stays there 2. The revs don't shoot up to the rev-limiter as if he's hammering the throttle 3. The driver doesn't need to let off the throttle, after the initial press, in order to stop the revs from rising - the revs just stop at a certain point due to the amount of throttle he is giving it, he doesn't need to let off slightly and then get slightly back on it. A. You got to be kidding me. After looking into this further, and checking out a ton of videos online, I'm even more convinced B. The reason why I checked while also in-gear but with the clutch pressed is because someone mentioned that it would/could be different than in neutral, I know it's exactly the same, but some people don't seem to know that so I was just doing it to show them too. So i'm sorry but it shows nothing of my knowledge, or lack of, in this area. C. Please show me a video of a race-car or a sports road car where the driver just gives 15 or 20 % throttle and BAM BAM BAM BAM the RPMs just shoot up to redline and start bouncing off the limiter, please.
Yeah just think about the speed and angle that you take that turn out of your pitbox, it's very tight and you only have mechanical grip, which for that situation is greatly compromised due to what they're designed and set up for. F1 cars are optimised for high speed race tracks, which means they really won't perform well in your local car park(crap turning circle too). If you spin you need to be gentler in that situation, just because it's a race car doesn't mean it's capable of everything you think it should be. Lots of power on tap, low longitudinal grip available in a tight slow turn, the rear tyres are trying to push the car forward but the fronts are turned and all you need is a little slip at the rear tyres and the car will follow the path of least resistance resulting in the back end coming around and yes the tyres can accelerate considerably once they break traction even at slow speed if you don't change your throttle input. It's easy done, check yourself before you wreck someone else. Even go and watch some onboard with telemetry at monaco where the cars are set up as best they can be for the slow turns. See how finely the drivers apply the throttle out of turns, as they feed more power in they're straightening up the wheel, always, they have to. You also won't see them reach full throttle unless they've picked up considerable speed or are already going straight.
My post was nothing to do with the posts between the two of you. From what I did read, i'm not sure if you understood what Paul originally said about slip angles and driving to the limit of the tyres, he doesn't mean actual 'drifting'. Anyway, i've not read the other posts and I can't be bothered to, i've had enough crazy in this thread and i'm out, it isn't worth talking to some people around these parts.
As I was thinking above, I reckon these have some form of limiter. That video makes it a bit clearer than the ones I saw, which weren't HD. Look at the way the rev lights flicker, the rev numbers waver by one or two revs on the steering wheel. I reckon they have some kind of engine map mode specifically for the race start, seeing what is done with his hands at the start. I don't see how that can be banned though, short of any variable engine mappings being banned. What is to stop them sussing out a nice control of torque and power for the start as well as lowering the rev limit to control a bit more what the car can do? That is not technically a launch control system, but would certainly help in taking off...
