YES!!!!! I've been saying this for years about ISI engine based sims. Although they are my absolute favorite in terms of the pure physics/driving experience (and best, generally speaking, based on my real-life experience), there is this matter you mentioned. Many times, instead of the rear-end swinging around, it feels like it's more like the front-end is just turning in too much or something. It's like too much of the momentum of the car going forward gets lost, and so then the front-end of the car ends up actually turning sharply (sort of as if you are literally trying to turn), rather than having more of the vehicle's momentum/intertia continuing going forward while the rear steps out/swings around. Or maybe another way to describe it is, it can feel like the pivot point of where the car spins is actually coming front the front-end rotating and turning, rather than the rear-end rotating. This has been improved in the rF2 physics model, but is still, at times, noticeable. The only sim engine that really nailed this down was Drivers Republic (Alpha, or Beta or whatever) it was an attempt at making a road-racing sim by the creator of Richard Burns Rally. I wish we could at least still download the very final build before he shut the project down. Even on my plastic, laggy, weak, Logitech Momo Racing black wheel, the oversteer physics of the F2000 (or was at a wing-less F1600?) were the best of probably any sim in history, in my opinion.
I know I say things in simplistic terms but honestly that is how big the gulf is for me ...........personally speaking. What is really amazing to me is my performance on various tracks with my favourite car. I am 1+ sec off the best pace at circuits like Monaco and Loch Drummond but at equally difficult ones like Kyalami and Jarama I am on top. That in itself is not strange I understand, however with rF2 physics the tracks I struggle at , my Eve, she turns into a sow !@! lol Almost like I am driving 2 different cars, I feel like the driver you see in pitstop sometimes shaking his head at the engineer as if to say .... " FIIK !!! " Never had this feeling from other sims to the same extent. That probably makes no sense to anyone. lopl
Which rF2 car/s does this happen in? I can't remember ever sitting on the grid in a car and not being able to hold rpms steady so i'd like to try one or all of the cars you find this in to see for myself. Also, even in real cars I find you have to hold your foot dead still to hold the rpms steady, if you don't they rise or fall since when in neutral a tiny movement can change the amount of rpms considerably.
1967 Howston G4 Mk3: I just tapped the throttle quickly, and only around 25% or so, and the revs just absolutely sky rocketed to over 7000 RPM in an instant. It was so instantaneous like lightning lol, so digital feeling, totally messed. 2014 Formula Renault 3.5: I just tapped the throttle quickly to about 25 % (checked in controller setup), and the revs almost instantly went from idle all the way to absolute redline - bouncing off the limiter like crazy, lol. Panoz: This car has a much "lazier" engine, with most likely a much heavier flywheel. Well the same thing happens. The only difference is that because of the heavy and lazy engine characteristics, the RPMs take about 1 full second, maybe 2, to reach 7000 RPM. It isn't almost instant like the other cars, but it's still the same basic behavior, just slowed down. I bet this is part of the oversteer problem all these years and engine versions. Once the tyres start slipping (either from being lifted in the air from a bump, getting light, regular amounts of slip/wheelspin, etc) then because of this throttle-to-engine issue, the RPMs are much, much too willing to just want to fly to redline instantly once the tyres slip and the engine has a chance to. When actually in gear and driving (not stopped) this would obviously be horrible for car behavior as the engine REVs are now obviously "connected" to the drive-wheels. This seems to make quite a bit of sense in my mind, at least theoretically. I'm no engineer or whatever, but I honestly think I may be on to something here. Maybe ISI needs to work more on the engine (vehicle motor itself) physics...
No offense but I'm having a hard time taking some of you guys seriously. For example: A throttle position of 25% does not equate to 25% of engine power. Power output from the engine does not follow a linear relationship to the throttle. It is dependent on the pedal geometry and the throttle blade movement. In newer cars it depends on the programming of the drive by wire system. Anyway, here is a short vid of my playing with the Howston to show you can easily hold rpms in neutral. Of course this is all assuming some of you have your pedals setup correctly in the first place.
Jamie, you can see that just like a real car, you only need about 25% throttle in neutral to max-out the rpms. It's easy to modulate on my rig, just like you showed. However, if someone was not using 100% linear throttle mapping, it could easily be very difficult to modulate and the rpms would shoot up to max with either very little pedal travel or suddenly at a certain point of depressing the pedal depending on what non-linear mapping is selected.
As it should, no? There isn't any load on the engine. I could be wrong there but to me it makes sense since there is considerably more friction when the car is moving vs in neutral.
More difficult in this car. Spinelli should have a look at re calibrating his pedals and messing with the input curve. He's probably losing a lot of car control since it seems as though his pedals aren't setup properly.
Started my sim racing in Assetto corsa and was totally sold by the rhetoric of it's greatness and thats pretty much all i raced, and then, tried RF2 inspite of the bad press and for all the reasons stated above I have put AC on hard drive #4 and will revisit when they make it a complete product. Rf2 just continues to improve. AC just does not feel like a real car and RF2 even with it's shortcomings is miles ahead. I don't see the hype on graphics AC is cartoonish in its presentation. IMhO
About holding revs in a set position, I can do it in the Howston and pretty much any car. It's easy as long as you can keep really still. It's probably even easier for those with standard G25/27 pedals since they only have 256 steps of resolution. I've got the Bodnar cable for mine which gives 1024 steps and I can still do it in any car. I think T500 pedals are 1024 also but if the revs moved then i'd have to say that you did too, or your pedals need cleaned, calibrated or whatever. If you lower the sensitivity of your throttle based on what it does in neutral then it will become easier to modulate in the low end but harder/faster on the other end and vice versa with increased sensitivity. Certain styles/skill levels or vehicles types/racing series can benefit from a sensitivity change but if you change it purely based off of what the revs do in neutral then I don't think that's a well informed decision. It can also be a bandaid for bad technique, excuse for the perceived origin of flaws in the physics etc. Too often drivers are changing everything that they can except for their own technique or learning what they can to adapt to something different or checking input lag, fps, ffb and all the other things that could help and should be looked to instead of things that might ultimately hinder or limit performance. This is why people end up with ridiculous setups instead of learning how the car needs to be driven to be fast first and they end up with a setup that they can drive but is off the pace. Or in the worst cases, people just give up and write a sim off and only have bad things to say about it because it was too much for them, they didn't understand that they simply didn't understant and they returned to what was comfortable and familiar to them. A lot of people are very resistant to change, especially if it means leaving the heights of their current level in one place to work their way up elsewhere. Some people can't adapt, fair enough, but there are plenty of stubborn drivers that refuse to evolve or look into the avenues that could help. People assume too often that something is just wrong and they have no control over it, either because of previous experiences or knowledge and assuming that what they are doing should work(i'm not aiming that at people talking about a little bit of funky behaviour(best attributed to the tyre model just now I think), but blanket accusations of the sim being plain wrong). That's why we have this thread in the first place. Assumptions are like a nasty virus and there are way too many of them in the sim community and too few open minds to learn and advance. If you make an assumption, take a step back before you blurt it out, turn it into a question and you might have a better chance of leaning something before a flame war starts. Anyway, about rev pickup i'm not surprised how fast you can bounce the limiter in the Howston G4 67, it's a brutal beast of an engine with huge power and torque. Seems normal and in just about any car you don't need to open the throttle much to get to redline pretty quickly. How much air does the engine really require to spin up under minimal load..especially when it's a capable of hauling itself along at over 200mph? Not a lot, it's explosive, literally! I also don't see how throttle response in neutral is in any way linked to the behaviour of the engine and loads while in gear with different situations of grip/slip at the tyres. I'm pretty sure ISI have that behaviour separated from engine throttle response in neutral, how can it not be? While in gear, to reach the rev limit the tyres will still need to be accelerated to the maximum speed attainable for that gear ratio while interacting/overcoming the forces at play, so if anything is wrong it is in the complexity of interactions taking place in the contact patch. I do have faith that ISI will keep improving the simulation of this, they like to take their time over things and make the best of it that they can. I'll reserve judgement on any weird behaviour until they say that at least the contact patch is complete. Though just remember that even though things might not be quite right, you've still got a hell of a lot of power available in a Howston and tyres with a lot less grip than modern tyres, that need to be driven with oversteer to go as fast as possible. Not sure if you've read the profile page, it tells you there how it should be driven: http://rfactor.net/web/rf2/cars/howston-hg4-hg6/ I know it was another thread you posted that video of the Lola at Silverstone, but I found this and it's relevant so might as well add it here while i'm at it. It's from the same series: The tyres they use in this series are treaded tyres, the same pattern that was used historically on the bias-ply tyres that we have, except the tyres being used today are made with modern compounds(I checked the series regulations and looked up the actual tyres used on the cars). So these tyres have more grip than the ones we drive with in sim and still you can see whenever he gets on the power to drive out of the corner he transitions into oversteer, straightening the wheel and sawing at the wheel to balance his wheel steering with his right foot steering. The driver in the Lola at Silverstone either wasn't pushing or didn't have the confidence in himself or the setup to push in the same way. The driver in the video above looks much more like the way I drive the Howston and so many others do too, except in sim we can push so much more and i'm pretty much straight into oversteer at turn in or as soon as possible since it's the way to go as fast as possible, but not always at every single corner. However, if we wanted to slow down a bit and drive more like real life forces us to then it's possible, but why go slower? Unless you had something to lose by having an accident, like your one car for a race weekend, or you need to save the one set of tyres for the duraction of race/weekend then it's not going to happen. If you got any driver from any era in F1 and got them to drive in rF2, they'd be driving the cars as fast as possible just like us, not trying to emulate the speed they actually drove certain cars at. That's what racing is, pushing the limits as far as you can.(Please ISI, bring us damage and wear persistence across sessions with repair/part/tyre limits, it would add massively to the experience if we only had one car for a race weekend and a limited number of tyres. That really would be a game changer for league racing, you wouldn't be able to crash 10 times in a qualifying session to get that one elusive crazy hotlap or destroy your tyres over and over. Then we would be able to set things up to make us drive more like they used to.) Anyway, the Howston is a very tough car to get to grips with, personally i'd rate some of the models the toughest in rF2. It's got a steep learning curve but once you get used to the low grip and huge power, have a good setup and dial in your ffb then driving it anywhere and being in control of it at speed is one of the most rewarding sim experiences available. Old Spa is a personal favourite in just about any historic car and is especially epic in these when you get it working for you. Driving fast comes easy to some, but being as fast as possible is a long, hard road for anyone. We all struggle at some point and if you want to get the most out of anything worth doing well, there is great value in putting your time and energy into the many things that can assist you. You reap what you sow. ps. Most of this post ended up being a rant and not aimed at you Spinelli
I think I understand that you just drive every car according to its rules and its limits, and that's fine, but when you have specific expectations from a car, it's harder to just go with it. I was really happy when they updated the GT cars, because I felt the grip drop-off was ridiculously brutal, and it feels more progressive now. I know they will update the DW12 to have less rear grip and a more responsive throttle, so I should be happy with it once that happens. I find the Renault a bit too skittish for me, however.
All good stuff there, especially that video as he looks to be cracking it on. The one other thing is the tyres on the standard G4 Howston...they are very small and old. Coupled with a reasonably sized car and a big amount of power and torque. No wonder it is sometimes hard to control. Compared to the final version in rF2 with the biggest tyre available and 100 less HP... View attachment 14167 View attachment 14168 It is listed in the car details page for the 60's F1 cars, and possibly the Howston, that the way to drive it most of the time is using the throttle to slide and steer with while mostly holding a straight ahead wheel position or countersteering. I'm fairly certain that's how I've been driving it all this time, and its what that video shows quite well. I also notice the steering he is putting into the wheel...not a huge range really.
Indeed. They are updating it with more complete data. That's an interesting issue, but it might just be when the engine is not under load. It's harder to verify when driving. The DW12 is so obvious that it's hard to ignore there's a problem. The GT updates reduced the jumping throttle effect recently, so ISI might have found a solution for power spikes. As for nKP, this is probably the saddest thing about AC. Big step down from 2006 to 2014.
Yeah crazy size difference between them! Great to have so much variety in the models ISI created. It really is an awesome feeling to pitch the car into a corner and not have to make a single movement with the steering wheel for the rest of the corner, hold it dead straight and get the perfect exit bang on the racing line from throttle application alone. Really looking forward to testing the Howston again in the next build.
My pedals throttle sensitivity was set to 45% (I like 20-25% in rF1 based sims where fully linear is 50%, so I use 45 when fully linear is 100% like rF2). However I also tested with my pedals at fully linear settings (100%). The issue is not my pedals. I can see them in the driver control panel and in the rF2 controller options; there is nothing wrong with the throttle. Plus, I've noticed this for years on many cars, with different pedals. I did the test with the car in neutral rather than in gear with the clutch pressed. I'll give that a test now. I also tried it on 3 completely different cars, there is no way it's due to just individual car throttle position mappings ("drive by wire" ), unless almost every car is messed up with it's throttle position mappings. As soon as the tyres start loosing grip, then that means lower friction which make it easier and easier for the tyres and revs to spin up, and that's when this throttle-engine issue will therefore come into play while driving. As soon as you get near the limit, then the revs want to keep rising too easily hence making the rear want to get lighter/looser more and more (if my theory is correct that is) because the engine is trying to raise revs even though you may be holding neutral, steady throttle throughout the corner. Think of it this way, the revs, the engine, wants to keep rising too much on even low throttle application, so once the tyres start slipping then that makes it easier for this throttle-engine issue to come into play since it's so much easier to spin the tyres once they're already starting to loose grip due to less friction because you are in a slipping state. Kind of like the difference between flooring the car while it's on the ground or while it's lifted in the air with no geound contact, not thar extreme but the same idea, low friction for the tyres so it's much easier to get them to spin up.
Good sim - easy to drive and follow wut i say Bad sim - Very hard to drive and always spin. yeah...sim problem
Few days back you visited Fun2Race Howston server, was there a problem to Ernie, Kelju_K or to me with handling this car, I don`t think so. There is nothing wrong with ISI engine or rFactor2 but there may be a problem between pedals and the wheel
"Good sim - easy to drive and follow wut i say"= AC= video game "Bad sim - Very hard to drive and always spin." = Simulator= n... who don`t know how to drive. Yeah...driver problem.
