Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by pitkin, Nov 3, 2011.
I wouldn't be against this, but not concerned either way.
I do not think this is possible as it would require each and everyone of us to pay via credit card, but there is supposed to be DVD release as well.
But let's wait and see what Tim has to say on this.
I like the idea of everyone using real names, but given all the different ways people can purchase the product, there is no effective way to ensure this happens every time. However, with an online account, we get a lot closer to making the experience less anonymous.
The issue for me IS money.
I'm happy to buy the game.
I'm happy to pay for updates.
I don't wish to pay to use a service that I don't want, to achieve what I was doing for free in RF1.
I don't wish to pay three times (3 computers, so 3 accounts I guess) to use a service i don't want, to achieve the same as I was in RF1 for free.
I agree it's not much money to spend, but only if you're spending it on a service you actually want.
But I guess the choice is mine. I either pay up myself or charge my friends to use my other PC's or don't pay and don't play.
I know and indeed hope this game will be a success whatever they do, but I really hope they relent on the LAN issue.
I suppose PC to PC with a crossover cable has the same issues?
pitkin, if you wish to play on the 3 computers simultaneously, then you will have to buy 3 accounts, if you want to play one at a time, it is 1 account.
take this time to pause for a song...
I was always under the impression that the license/activation system allowed you the extra install so you could install rFactor on a gaming PC away from your home for you to use not to allow your friends or family a free copy. Thats possibly one of the reason's why an account system has been brought in to recoup some of the money lost to people doing that.
The same way you did before you came to ISI? iRacing will be around as will many other opportunities. Don't turn this into you being out of a job should ISI fail. Its actually most likely that ISI would get bought out by someone like iRacing in order to take a competitor out of the market (and I'm sure you can go back to iRacing in that scenario).
Tim, it's not silly and ultimately it is insulting that you think it is so. I have zero problem with ISI watching out for itself and I have no problem with paying the fee for the service (because it is ultimately peanuts). I have a problem with the fact that ISI has no plan to allow those who have paid for their product to continue using their product should your requirements (matchmaker) for online play disappear. Or heaven forbid ISI fail. Or get bought out. Or any other of a multitude of reasons why multiplayer could up and disappear and I'm left with a only a mode (single player) that I don't care about.
I think you completely missed the point, Litchfield
Besides, even if for some reason ISI would be abandoning rFactor 2, then they would probably sell ownership to it's matchmaker - why not get some extra money from product you're dropping anyway? Someone even from outside simracing industry would probably be glad to take over and collect $13 every year from us just for keeping the service running
Hell, I would
I hope that beta gets here soon to keep people occupied, because they are obviously bored enough to think up new problems every day
It's not about ISI abandoning rF2. It is about the fact that they don't have a plan should MM go down (for whatever reason) and the community be left with no multiplayer mode. That is the whole point.
Compare it to WoW shutting down. I'd have invested not only time but money in a game. One day it is going to end, and people are going to be left with software they can't use. Now if that is because a bigger and better WoW comes out then it doesn't quite matter and the same would be true if the reason I can't play rf2 is because rf3 has come out. But the problem is rf2 is basically unplayable should matchmaker not exist. At least it is unplayable to me because I couldn't care less about single player. I couldn't even LAN at my own home if matchmaker goes down. That is IMO a serious flaw. Either take the game entirely subscription (like iRacing or WoW) or don't go with any subscriptions at all. Don't give me half a game and not have a backup plan (or other way) for me to utilize that half of the game should something go wrong on your end.
Yes. In much the same way that I wonder about the longevity of any product that I might purchase.
Surprisingly, I have a great many things in my life that I can continue to enjoy, legally and even in their original intended fashion, long after the person responsible for designing and/or providing it has moved on to other endeavors, and even in some cases shuffled off this mortal coil altogether (may they rest in peace).
You seem to have interpreted the question to be rhetorical, or to espouse some foreign concept that is incompatible with your worldview. And maybe it is.
No, I'm afraid I do not get what you mean. But I can tell you how you'd pay your bills and support your family if, per chance, you were to find yourself fulfilling some other role than that which you currently occupy at ISI. Specifically, you'd do what most everyone does, all the time: continue to exchange effort exerted by yourself for money (or goods or services) provided by others who consider those efforts valuable.
But you seem to instead be implying that your past efforts should be rewarded indefinitely and even perhaps in perpetuity. This is inconsistent with every pattern of economic exchange of which I am aware.
That is a gross mis-characterization of the issues. What strikes me as silly, and a weird line of discussion, is this conflation of SAAS (software as a service) with just plain S (software).
No one is begrudging ISI for looking out for itself. The disingenuousness of your position thus far is that you pretend that there is only one way for ISI to look out for itself, and that is at the expense of some of our long-standing consumer freedoms.
I assert that it is perfectly reasonable and feasible for ISI to not just survive but to thrive, without resorting to an attempt to redefine the nature of the business transaction that it makes with its customers.
I realize that the gaming consumer has an annoying habit of wanting to own what it purchases, but this is not an inherently unfair expectation that we bring to the bargain. Fortunes have been made, and are currently and regularly being made, within the confines of this premise.
So, I say that if you want to continue to get paid, then ISI need do no more than continue to develop software that people consider valuable. But please don't confuse rF2 for some magic bottomless pot of gold, from which you are entitled to a lifetime supply of financial benefits.
And please cease the charade that this is somehow a choice between having to pay repeatedly for the privilege of racing online or condemning ISI to bankruptcy.
i read first 5 pages and saw that posts are all same, running in circle..
"classic" lan way is very simple to pass in terms of piracy and online gaming, you could drive over net thru hamachi or something with just simple cracked game..
i understand that that's primary reason for this way of integrating lan..
i only hope that changing server settings and other things will be more practical, finding and sorting servers, faster and not disappearing from list every second time..
Tim thanks for the post, pretty much answers everything.
I do apologise for the posts about hacking, it was more as an example as to why the previous system did not work from ISI point of view (loss of income).
People get the totally wrong idea when it comes to buying games. In WoW you are obviously paying for the ongoing service, because of the ongoing price. Yet I'm sure there'd be a huge uproar if it were shut down suddenly, because people would complain about all the money and time they've 'invested'. It's a game, you know it's a game, you know what you're paying for... if it stops you stop paying for it and move onto something else.
If, for whatever reason, rF2's service was to stop, you stop and move onto something else, and just use the offline portion if you want. You might lose some or all of your $13 for that year, and maybe that would annoy you, but it's no worse than some appliance or device breaking out of warranty - you lose your money and move on. Tried buying one of the recent CM F1 titles? How did that leave you feeling?
If TryMedia disappeared, you wouldn't be able to reinstall rF1 at all. I know some people didn't buy rF until the DVD came out for this very reason, and that's their choice. If the rF2 system worries you so much, don't buy it.
I just don't understand why people think they can demand what's being offered to them. If ISI really thought 3 people would buy rF2 with this system, they wouldn't be using it. I think it's fair to say most people looking forward to rF2 are happy with the system (I'm avoiding quoting the actual payment figures, since I might get the "it's not about the money" response) so it'll work for them and it'll work for ISI.
As I've said elsewhere, you can always stay with rF1 instead. No one's keeping you here.
Sometimes things go down for a while and then they're back again (fixed, replaced, etc.). Internet connections and computers are an example.
I prefer to compare it to rF1 - lot's of modders have invested their time (and perhaps money) in it and it's now coming to an end in a way.
Nobody is complaining about that.
No one complained about that, either.
Well, I understand it a little. If there was no rFactor 6 years back and this would be a completely new product, reactions would be different. But when you consider that rFactor 2 is some kind of continuation of rFactor - something that is supposed to replace it, then people don't like it when some feature "dissapears".
People would rather think, that with rFactor 2 they will get all they had in rFactor 1 and more and that's the way their expectations were shaped.
But it doesn't really have to work that way and we need to accept that. We actualy ARE getting more, but not all we could wish for and with something more ISI wishes from us. If that's the kind of offer they can present to us, I'm still onboard with it - it's not like they want me to pay "per-mod", take away everything when I don't pay subscription or anything like that.
No, I would have prefered for you to not announce it in such a cryptic way that required the community and myself over 200 posts to get a right answer.
I am not discussing about hacking the game myself, or saying that anyone should, we are discussing what is possible. ISI is putting measures in to stop piracy so why are we not allowed to discuss the possibility of piracy? For all of us who pay money and want to be legitimate owners of rF2, piracy is as much a problem as it is for ISI. What do you want us to do? turn a blind eye and think that ISI will provide a game that will be excempt from hackers??? You got to be joking mate. The discussion about hackers is not that we WANT to hack the game nor that we WANT to see the game hacked, but rather, a discussion of why certain things sometimes have to be done, why a majority must suffer with certain services due to the idiots who do hack.
That I agree with, there is no room to encourage people to play a cracked version and anyone who thinks its ok to tell people to play a cracked version should be banned. That was the whole point of our piracy discussion, the fact that piracy is out there, it exists, and if ISI have to take extreme measures to protect us legitimate players from hacking attempts, then by all means, go for it ISI.
Why would they attack me for piracy??? I am not talking about anyone here doing piracy, none of us talked about us doing piracy. We're talking about the possibility of piracy. In rF1 it was a large factor, many people in the community who legitimately bought rF1 became increasingly frustrated with all the fake cracked game users who kept coming online and causing trouble. So why can't we discuss the possibility of that happening with rF2? We are just as afraid of spending our money on rF2 and finding out in the future people are using a cracked version as they did in rF1.
I am saying that if ISI needs to take extreme measures to protect us legitimate players from these hackers and from piracy, then good on ISI, thats whats needed and if we have to go through this MM stuff due to it, then great, that for me is the discussion ender, thats where I draw the line and say. ISI is right to do this method, they are worried about piracy, they are worried about how it affects us legitimate supporters of ISI, so there you go people, ISI is looking out for us.
That is the whole premise of my posts and the fact that you're talking to me as if I am mentioning of performing piracy myself is insulting. I suggest you read and comprehend my posts better next time just like you advise many of us to do. I mean no disrespect to you Tim, you're a great guy, have done so much for ISI, but to me your post felt like you were accusing me of performing and encouraging piracy myself. Gjon is an inspiration for me, he is one of the nicest people you'll ever meet in your life. But I'm sorry, I find it hard to believe that we're not allowed to be on ISI's side when it comes to piracy. In any case, as you have requested, I respect your request and will no longer talk about piracy. *tips hat*
Petros, like 'owning' the game, you're on ISI's forums so you have to abide by what they say. Absolute freedom of speech isn't a right on someone's forum.
I know that mate, I'm not disputing that. I run my own forums so I know that point just as well as Tim does. My point was that he was making out like I was discussing about performing piracy myself and that's the problem for me. I didn't begin the piracy talks to encourage anyone to pirate the game, and never in my posts will you acquire that sensation. I mentioned piracy because its something not only I, but others here are worried about too and we feel that Piracy may be a strong reason why everything is going through MM and if that's the case, well fine, that's the case, I can accept that.
Furthermore, fine I won't discuss about the possibility of piracy, that's a given since it was asked by a higher up, but don't go posting like I was promoting it and encouraging it either. Get my drift? In any case, I hope laws become even more strict for hacker. I hope they become so strict that they end up hanging every hacker they find publically. That may stop those idiots from performing such actions and ruining things for the rest of us.
Tim wasn't questioning your ethics, and no one else who reads and understands your posts will either. The point is he doesn't want you discussing it at all... yet you keep going.
I don't use the offline portion. In my mind, I am essentially paying to purchase a copy of the game with the express intent of using it almost exclusively online. In fact the only time I use the game offline is to practice for online races when the private server which hosts our league happens to be down. See there is the big difference. When the private server our league is on goes down, I can still go race at another league or publicly. With the new system, I don't have that option. Matchmaker goes down and I have essentially lost access to an essential part of the product I have purchased.
Separate names with a comma.