[WIP] Monterey Laguna LIDAR

GTClub_wajdi said:
So Mario is using Laserscan to make this track?:confused:
Click to expand...

There is a bit of disinformation about this kind of data...:)

Mario is using a Lidar point cloud to build the track. So, yes, technically he's using discrete return laser informations but they're aerial scanning;

lidar_schematic.jpg


Aerial scanning are a great resource but you can't compare it with a laser scanned track, where you have to use ground based instruments (tripod fixed or mobile) to grab a gamma of details you can't get from aerials;

scanner_image.jpg


800px-Mapping_van_tomtom_with_five_lidars.jpg


Aerials working great for terrains, thanks to the vertical accuracy but you've a lot of limitations for other aspects, like obstruction (angles), weather (cloud obstruction), building structure at the terrain level, vegetation, points per minute, density etc...

With mobile/fixed instruments (ground based) you can get a density of 0.005/0.015 fps (foot point spacing), a huge amount of data you can't get from airborne.

But when you read about laser scanned tracks, you don't have to think for a superhighpoly track mesh. This is a legend...as even a laser scanned track needs to follow the game standard and the same GPU limitation as other tracks. So the main asset is to get a lot of informations about everything in the circuit...but then you've to build your own track using the point cloud as a reference. The result is a very correct elevation profile, correct and realistic cambers, correct main bumps and a huge amount of data for buildings, structures, objects etc..

At the end of the story...the work is in the 3D Artist hands even with Lidars...like other tracks.
 
Tuttle said:
There is a bit of disinformation about this kind of data...:)

Mario is using a Lidar point cloud to build the track. So, yes, technically he's using discrete return laser informations but they're aerial scanning;

lidar_schematic.jpg


Aerial scanning are a great resource but you can't compare it with a laser scanned track, where you have to use ground based instruments (tripod fixed or mobile) to grab a gamma of details you can't get from aerials;

scanner_image.jpg


800px-Mapping_van_tomtom_with_five_lidars.jpg


Aerials working great for terrains, thanks to the vertical accuracy but you've a lot of limitations for other aspects, like obstruction (angles), weather (cloud obstruction), building structure at the terrain level, vegetation, points per minute, density etc...

With mobile/fixed instruments (ground based) you can get a density of 0.005/0.015 fps (foot point spacing), a huge amount of data you can't get from airborne.

But when you read about laser scanned tracks, you don't have to think for a superhighpoly track mesh. This is a legend...as even a laser scanned track needs to follow the game standard and the same GPU limitation as other tracks. So the main asset is to get a lot of informations about everything in the circuit...but then you've to build your own track using the point cloud as a reference. The result is a very correct elevation profile, correct and realistic cambers, correct main bumps and a huge amount of data for buildings, structures, objects etc..

At the end of the story...the work is in the 3D Artist hands even with Lidars...like other tracks.
Click to expand...

So even iRacing laser-scanned circuits are not accurate 100%?
 
GTClub_wajdi said:
So even iRacing laser-scanned circuits are not accurate 100%?
Click to expand...

Well, depends what you mean with the term "accuracy". :)

The accuracy is still present in the RAW set of points cloud, but THEN, you've to create the track using the dataset as a main collection of reference points...but they CAN'T put all those points into the track because it never works.

So, when you're driving above an iRacing track, or in Ferrari Virtual Accademy...you're not driving above a 1 millimeter resolution surface...but above a standard mesh which is an average output (even created with a standard modeling process) of the RAW dataset.

100% accurate? Of course no! It can't be and can't work...but the final product can offer more accuracy thanks to the dataset used to build the track. Better slopes, better cambers, some good main bump, tons of data for buildings, obstacles, TSO etc.

It's like a lidar car scan. You grab a point cloud of the car...then you go home and you have to create the game mesh using those data as a reference...but you can't create a mesh using the same amount of data, thinking at those points as mesh vertices...:) They aren't vertices...

You can understand what I mean thanks to some FVA public shots;

This is a F1 nurbu points cloud;

n05.jpg


Then...you can see how the mesh looks in the final product;

n01.jpg


As you can see the mesh it's just a standard. Pretty the same you see in other non-laser scanned tracks...but with more accuracy. That's all..
 
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What Wajdi and Tuttle said is only partially true: in the case of graphical representation.
But LS data may be used to create invisible layer just for physics. And it is how iRacing makes use of it. Then, even if polygons density gives resolution for example about 1m, physics engine may be driven by 1cm precision data.

BTW: I'm curious if rF2 provides possibility to define high resolution surface data for physics
 
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MaXyM said:
What Wajdi and Tuttle said is only partially true: in the case of graphical representation.
But LS data may be used to create invisible layer just for physics. And it is how iRacing makes use of it. Then, even if polygons density gives resolution for example about 1m, physics engine may be driven by 1cm precision data.

BTW: I'm curious if rF2 provides possibility to define high resolution surface data for physics
Click to expand...

Invisible roadnoise layers can be used by everyone. It's a common trick to get more feedback from the road..but you need proper frequencies to make this stuff working correctly. Even if you're using 1mm resolution the physics can't reach such density...so it can be pretty useless. BTW...honestly I can't feel anything special in the iRacing road feedback, maybe because there is some lack in the tire/suspension physics field, so I miss the real asset for using this method...and, thanks to God, I'm not affected by the placebo effect caused by the illusion to drive above the real deal. If it feels linear something is wrong...or it is linear. ;)

About the 1cm, honestly, I've some doubts...maybe they're interpolating with linear connections every X reference points...that is FAR AWAY from a millimeter non-linear resolution...but the most important thing is...it's working? :)

PS: We're hijacking the WIP thread...sorry Mario. :)
 
Tuttle said:
Invisible roadnoise layers can be used by everyone. It's a common trick to get more feedback from the road..but you need proper frequencies to make this stuff working correctly. Even if you're using 1mm resolution the physics can't reach such density...so it can be pretty useless. BTW...honestly I can't feel anything special in the iRacing road feedback, maybe because there is some lack in the tire/suspension physics field, so I miss the real asset for using this method...and, thanks to God, I'm not affected by the placebo effect caused by the illusion to drive above the real deal. If it feels linear something is wrong...or it is linear. ;)

About the 1cm, honestly, I've some doubts...maybe they're interpolating with linear connections every X reference points...that is FAR AWAY from a millimeter non-linear resolution...but the most important thing is...it's working? :)

PS: We're hijacking the WIP thread...sorry Mario. :)
Click to expand...

you are right ! I played iRacing for 3-4months and I was expecting an elite-accurate ffb for the laser-scanned circuits but it was a big delusion I found iRacing ffb a bit' flat!!
 
in iR you may feel less, because of powersteering simulation.
Also microbumps are not about frequencies it self. it's about noise. but it must be not really 'micro'. for example 20 square centimeters bump, with height of 5mm may be modeled or represented by hidden layer. of course it may be modded but who will model it with bevel for example?
Im sure it would affect physics, so it would be good technology for us.
 
MaXyM said:
in iR you may feel less, because of powersteering simulation.
Also microbumps are not about frequencies it self. it's about noise. but it must be not really 'micro'. for example 20 square centimeters bump, with height of 5mm may be modeled or represented by hidden layer. of course it may be modded but who will model it with bevel for example?
Im sure it would affect physics, so it would be good technology for us.
Click to expand...

Well it's the opposite. :)

A powersteering get you more feedback from your front wheels, especially for speed sensitive systems, not less and we're talking about vertical elements (bump maps into physics).


PS: real bumps needs proper frequencies or you get just a missed effect or a flying car...:)
 
Very interesting information on how laser is used for track building. I would imagine the primary reason that real drivers like to use laser scanned tracks is because they can learn exactly how far it is from beginning of straight to end as well as what degree a turn makes and what elevation changes will occur on real track. I don't think they are trying to figure out car handling or setups :)

BTW, I have worked along side road crews and know how real asphalt is laid down. I seriously doubt that anyone could recreate the hidden grooves on the track that are left behind from the paving crew.
 
I know every bit of the iracing version ( bumps dips cambers etc) so it will be interesting to try this one out

Laguna is one if those sort of tracks you really don't like at first but then it slowly grows on you untill it's amongst your favourites

Fingers crossed for this rf2 version
 
Hi, the terrain and track modeling is ready.

now i'm adding fences, walls and tires. this track have lots of fences an tires :-)


"Haste is the enemy of perfection". :-)
 
Mario Morais said:
Hi, the terrain and track modeling is ready.

now i'm adding fences, walls and tires. this track have lots of fences an tires :-)


"Haste is the enemy of perfection". :-)
Click to expand...

There is no need to rush :)

Of course it would be nice to see some onboards when it's ready. :)
 
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