Headphones have a left ear and a right ear. Anything offset is simply going to sound like its coming from one ear more than the other. Nothing will ever sound like its properly infront of you with a headphone setup, no matter the "profile"
Released GTE and Oreca 07 New Tyre Update
- Thread starter Paul Jeffrey
- Start date
Lazza
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No, that's pretty much exactly what HRTF can help provide. You have two ears and can hear sounds around you, not just left and right. That's what HRTF aims to do.
However, separating HRTF from what's being discussed is also important (or, indeed, acknowledging its effects!)
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You're plainly wrong. That's what positional sound is, and contrary to your believes it works better with headphones.
in vr..
Actually this is false. With proper audio processing, headphones can perfectly replicate what human ears can hear. We don't perceive direction based on how loud something is. Instead, the waves interact with your entire head, skull, and ears (and not just the inner ear) in a way that filters certain frequencies and delays the sound for one ear a little. It is entirely possible that both ears hear sound somewhat equally loud but you still perceive a location for it based on the other factors. Even up and down is possible because of this.
This is where the new sound engine comes in. The old one did not have a concept of position. It would only attenuate left or right. This is why it was necessary to use tricks in content that actually ended up "breaking" it a little for the new engine - by playing it back right behind or infront the driver's head. With the old engine, this would make it sound centered. In the new one, it makes it sound like it's floating in space somewhere vaguely close to your car.
The new engine actually does all of this processing, and that's where this comes in:
HRTF is a technique that simulates this whole effect. However, when audio doesn't interact with its environment because of a bug that would cause it to be limited to direct playback, it will sound "too positional". It would still be clearly positioned and turning your head (either in VR or in Freelook) will make that exceptionally obvious when HRTF is enabled, but it would absolutely sound like it's coming from that direction only, which is not immersive. I expect a mix of that and a lack of HRTF to cause the described issue, as that's the only way sound gets panned to one side a little without a clear position.
TJones
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What impress me most, apart from that HRTF stuff is the increase of sound level range. For example if you stand close to a track and cars passing by, that increase of volume just in that moment where the cars are close to you. This sounds very much like you where standing there in real live. While TV coverage is unable to replicate this. The impulse of backfire sound, is also a good example. Just load up Daytona road track with some Oreca's, place yourself/camera at the first braking zone. It's amazing! 
Yes, I agree that the new sound engine replicates the audio dynamics of the racing environment much better. Not only better than the previous sound-engine but, better than F-mod does, and even better than some custom sound-engines do. Also, the cone-of-sound (In-car dynamics as related to opponent cars) is much more convincing, imo.What impress me most, apart from that HRTF stuff is the increase of sound level range. For example if you stand close to a track and cars passing by, that increase of volume just in that moment where the cars are close to you. This sounds very much like you where standing there in real live. While TV coverage is unable to replicate this. The impulse of backfire sound, is also a good example. Just load up Daytona road track with some Oreca's, place yourself/camera at the first braking zone. It's amazing!
Interestingly, I recently experienced this "offset" engine audio issue (engine sounds to one side) in AMS2 when I tested applying the Windows Sonic surround app. The app was effective at improving the opponent-position effect but, put the player-car engine audio far to one side.
Lazza
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Ok, let's separate this into two 'issues' for clarity.
1. Some cars being offset: in some cars (e.g. Ferrari GTE) the sound is centered. In other cars (Aston GTE) the sound is slightly offset, to the right. Since settings influence the way this manifests, we can reliably demonstrate this by:
- Setting windows to speakers, stereo (2 channels)
- Set rF2 audio to Speakers
- Record audio ('stereo mix', 'what you hear', etc in recording device)
- Listen to that recording with headphones in straight stereo (headphones to make the offset clear, though it's also noticeable with stereo speakers of course).
2. Settings or HRTF profile failing to place the sounds correctly, or a bug doing the same. So instead of the offset engine sound coming from "20° to the right of front-centre" as it will with stereo speakers and the above described settings, with headphones on it's coming from the right ear, or the right side of the head at least.
(one note: when I say some cars are centered and others not, I'm speaking in relative terms; maybe in measured amplitude or perceptually none of the cars are absolutely centered, but some seem to be more to one side than others)
Higher frequencies are more directional than lower frequencies. Below some threshold frequency we can't know where the sound is coming from. It's progressive, as the frequency goes up we start to perceive more and more where it's coming from.
Also, the placement of the car parts that emit sound might be different from car to car. I don't know exactly how sound is implemented but even the cabinet encolsure can have an influence, openness, holes, size,...
One thing I liked instantly about the new sound engine on headphones is that I could hear I was in a closed space.
Lazza
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Curious as I am about how the sound engine determines open or closed cockpit, and how much it models the shape (via raytracing or other), that's really a discussion re the sound engine in general. This thread is focused on the placement of the engine sound. (Oops... thought this was its own thread. Read "discussion")
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Yes, we're off topic since several pages, it happens with most complains and we don't even notice.
I'm talking about those features because it could be the reason different cars have different sound placement. It doesn't have to be necessarily a bug. Some see bugs in everything that doesn't comply to their imagined expectations. Give them the real Aston Martin and they'll find bugs in it, maybe the engine sound is too loud and not well balanced between ears.
Just a heads up, I have received a video and trace which lead to us finding a very minor error in content that had a drastic effect on panning of the engine specifically. With HRTF on, you'd hear the position being to one side, but with it off, the left speaker was clearly quieter. This means the issue can be corrected for future updates. I'm not sure how this wasn't discovered or reported earlier because in at least two cars the effect really is quite obvious, although not game breakingly bad.
For further context, this was caused by the reverb effect incorrectly being panned slightly to the right, so a lot of engine sound simply would not interact with the left side of the car. The lack of bounce caused it to sound like the whole sound stage was slightly muted on the left, but only for the engine. This was not an issue in some cars that had the engine in different positions that would overcome that problem entirely, naturally interacting more with both ears. So it wasn't consistent across all tested content
For further context, this was caused by the reverb effect incorrectly being panned slightly to the right, so a lot of engine sound simply would not interact with the left side of the car. The lack of bounce caused it to sound like the whole sound stage was slightly muted on the left, but only for the engine. This was not an issue in some cars that had the engine in different positions that would overcome that problem entirely, naturally interacting more with both ears. So it wasn't consistent across all tested content
Frederick Alonso
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I will add, why not. Mike and myself have had a few tests. We did both record, swap ideas and all that while it was clear at his system the levels where more panned then with the other people we tried it on. First I believed his computer or audio device had serious phase issues but when he showed some cars sounding right I was not sure what to believe.
I'm an open book, in just 3,5 hours I cloned the Skippy new sound engine and changed all the code aside of the Reverb section in the top lines into the new Cayman sound. If it read it correct, that is then on all moddev skippy's? No drama at all, if it's updated I will find the difference.
Today I was coming close again to it thinking the skippy is smaller in size, so my car should sound wider. Or in other words the driver point vs engine is different.
I'm an open book, in just 3,5 hours I cloned the Skippy new sound engine and changed all the code aside of the Reverb section in the top lines into the new Cayman sound. If it read it correct, that is then on all moddev skippy's? No drama at all, if it's updated I will find the difference.
Today I was coming close again to it thinking the skippy is smaller in size, so my car should sound wider. Or in other words the driver point vs engine is different.
Sanio Alfa
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Porsche 911 GT3 Cup (992)
let this topic be here.
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[URL="https://forum.studio-397.com/index.php?threads/porsche-911-gt3-cup-992.73323/page-10#post-1117563"]Porsche 911 GT3 Cup (992)[/URL]
this is the real point I was referring to and I think that this is why the front tires wear too much.
you can turn off "Range set by vehicle" and set the deg bigger and that helps to some extent, especially with Aston.
no matter what I tried, the front tires still wear more than the rear.
I believe that's why s397 left the option of setting up medium/soft tires, which often see people using on servers. because everyone's front tires wear out a lot.
when car is arranged according to the filling and you are enjoying it, then the wear of the front tires always happens.
and if the car agrees that its rear end is more nervous, more aggressive, then the balance happens to some extent, but over time, consumption starts again on the front tires. car tuned in such a way that it works more oversteer is no longer so easy to control many times and is very unpredictable.
conclusion.
s397 should give to front tires less wear.
because it is not realistic that the rear tires wear less than the front tires on cars with a rear drive
let this topic be here.
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[URL="https://forum.studio-397.com/index.php?threads/porsche-911-gt3-cup-992.73323/page-10#post-1117563"]Porsche 911 GT3 Cup (992)[/URL]
this is the real point I was referring to and I think that this is why the front tires wear too much.
you can turn off "Range set by vehicle" and set the deg bigger and that helps to some extent, especially with Aston.
no matter what I tried, the front tires still wear more than the rear.
I believe that's why s397 left the option of setting up medium/soft tires, which often see people using on servers. because everyone's front tires wear out a lot.
when car is arranged according to the filling and you are enjoying it, then the wear of the front tires always happens.
and if the car agrees that its rear end is more nervous, more aggressive, then the balance happens to some extent, but over time, consumption starts again on the front tires. car tuned in such a way that it works more oversteer is no longer so easy to control many times and is very unpredictable.
conclusion.
s397 should give to front tires less wear.
because it is not realistic that the rear tires wear less than the front tires on cars with a rear drive
Lazza
Registered
Juan Cofiño
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In the LFM series of Nurbur, the rear ones wear out much more than the front ones.
doddynco
Registered
It's a bit of an ugly fact but having a weak FFB wheel will mean it is much more likely that the driver will overdrive the front tyres.
Extra driver consideration is needed when he can too easily push the steering past the optimum slip angle.
It might not be your issue but it is definitely worth considering.
Sanio Alfa
Registered
sorry, can you explain why in GTE cars there is an option left in the setup to be able to put whatever tire component you want on the front and rear of the car, let's say front medium, back soft?This simply isn't true. Sorry
on monza no problem any with tires
I talked about it here [URL="https://forum.studio-397.com/index.php?threads/porsche-911-gt3-cup-992.73323/page-10#post-1117464"]Porsche 911 GT3 Cup (992)[/URL]
I know that the main problem is that modern simulations are done exclusively on high-end steering wheels. but if they continue like this, they will lose a lot of users, because everyone wants to invest in expensive equipment.
and if ffb adjust more for weaker steering wheels, those with high-end will be easily adjusted, while weak steering wheels will make the ride a little more beautiful.
doddynco
Registered
I don't even know where to start with this but the fact that you think the difference beween a logitech and a high end DD wheel is the amount of steering rotation makes me think any explanation would be a complete waste of time.
Simulation_Player
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i thought we cleared it 992 thread. 2 main problems i see, your driving and setup.
as i said in past , i managed to get rear tyre wear faster than front OR vice versa on same car , on same track. just few tweaks with setup.
your conclusion is based on feeling without any proper evidence, and i know for fact what u are saying is not true.