[REL] GP3 SERIES 2016/2017/2018 2.31

Daniel Surace said:
Ive only had time to do a 2 , 5lap tests as i have work. Basically from my observation and from my memory of testing these cars aswell. the heating of the tyres you see in RF2 is surface temp, that's why you see such wild numbers. when you are turning into a track with the majority of corners right hand (monza, you are loading the left tyres. The temperatures you see in motec you will notice that the camber set on your front right are as expected, inner is warmer then outer. but when you load your left tyre into corners that load will shift outwards to the outer tyre, this is the point, to scrub across the surface of the tyre trying to keep more contact of rubber on the road but that heat is always shifting out to the area of most load. you will notice the inner tyre temp eventually goes back to being level or hotter on the longer straights aswell.

To me the above is expected behavior. With these GP3 tyres, as Marco(@Slow Motion ) has said before from the feedback he has received from drivers/engineers, they are sensitive to heat and abuse. GP3 drivers don't use excessive turn angles. and you will notice the more excessive turning and sliding front or rear, you will heat the tyres and once these tyres are hot its a compounding affect they will heat even more unless you let them cool down. I successfully did 5 laps without any major wear or heat on soft's at monza. 1-2% this is after not driving these cars for sometime now. take the motec with a grain of salt with temps imo, look at AVG temps perhaps more importanly, and when looking at the HUD avoid letting them change colour to orange/yellow etc.

Considering monza is a low downforce track, the tyres and suspension need to work harder, so whether you need to run more downforce,tune your suspension to get more mechanical grip to find a compromise with getting the car to not overload the tyres as much. even run a harder compound.

I can recommend downloading a skid pan test track to see how the tyres load with suspension changes. from stock setup go around the pan and watch how hot the outer tyre gets and compare the 'G' loading after some amount of laps when grip drops. Now try change some setups and you will see by tuning the mechanical side that the temps begin to fall and you will also turn the car differently and you wont be turning as much.

EDIT: i believe motec you can add the channel for tyre Carcass temp, that my give you a better average of what the tyre is doing.
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Wow thank you very much for the in depth reply.

Last night I spent hrs trying to find a way to run soft to medium spring rates to give me more mechanical grip in the slow to medium corners, while still running low downforce to lessen the drag, but still have enough downforce in the medium to high speed corners.

I couldn’t find a happy medium as I. Had to run harder springs to stop the dragging

With lowest wing settings I was maxing out at 183mph, but the top four guys in the practice table in our league are maxing out at 186-188mph but whatching the replays of them while in server, they have so much more grip in every corner than I did,slow medium and fast corners.

I was trying to find an overall ride height along with the best rake to try to reproduce this, but the only way I could reach that top speed, was to have the front higher than the rear while at speed, but in the corners I lost all grip.

So I added downforce which didn’t do much at all because it slowed me down as expected on the straights, but because the front ride heights where higher than the rear,I had no front grip in the corners.

These top guys “aliens” are 1-1.4 seconds faster than me,just like the aliens were in iracing, but in iracing there was a setup trick to use which didn’t correlate to anything realistic that they used, this was clearly admitted by some aliens but they wouldn’t share this secret to freely.

I had one alien share a setup that allowed me to run the same qualifying times as them in iracing, but not long after I had to do a clean install and lost it due to me not backing up my setups folder,and o can’t remember the quirks of the setup.
I hope it’s not the same here and it’s just my lack of understanding rf2.
 
patchedupdemon said:
Wow thank you very much for the in depth reply.

Last night I spent hrs trying to find a way to run soft to medium spring rates to give me more mechanical grip in the slow to medium corners, while still running low downforce to lessen the drag, but still have enough downforce in the medium to high speed corners.

I couldn’t find a happy medium as I. Had to run harder springs to stop the dragging

With lowest wing settings I was maxing out at 183mph, but the top four guys in the practice table in our league are maxing out at 186-188mph but whatching the replays of them while in server, they have so much more grip in every corner than I did,slow medium and fast corners.

I was trying to find an overall ride height along with the best rake to try to reproduce this, but the only way I could reach that top speed, was to have the front higher than the rear while at speed, but in the corners I lost all grip.

So I added downforce which didn’t do much at all because it slowed me down as expected on the straights, but because the front ride heights where higher than the rear,I had no front grip in the corners.

These top guys “aliens” are 1-1.4 seconds faster than me,just like the aliens were in iracing, but in iracing there was a setup trick to use which didn’t correlate to anything realistic that they used, this was clearly admitted by some aliens but they wouldn’t share this secret to freely.

I had one alien share a setup that allowed me to run the same qualifying times as them in iracing, but not long after I had to do a clean install and lost it due to me not backing up my setups folder,and o can’t remember the quirks of the setup.
I hope it’s not the same here and it’s just my lack of understanding rf2.
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You will be surprised how much car setup helps but driving style helps too. Some people find these hard to rotate .
What lap times are they doing with what tyre and track condition. I'll have a go this afternoon to see if driving a bit faster causes any issues .is this.monza from mcnolo RF2014?
 
Thank you guys for the very very interesting debate and the tech answers. I'm really happy than after long time the mod still deserves so great attention!
I can't promise any explanation, but I'll ask "Mr.D" for reading the posts... Do not forget now teams are starting for a full 2 sequential events that could show some surprise in the standing: Spa and Monza.
 
Racerfactor monza 2014

Top time so far is a 1:34.3, don’t know about tyres but suspect sorts are used.

I just find it strange how I’m always 1-1.4 seconds slower than the aliens in any sim I try.

Fun fact,in iracing they had a user made service call vrs,where they upload fastest laps set by the alien on the vrs team.

They supply telemetry for you to compare with,now my fastest lap was 1.4 seconds slower than there’s but my brake points,throttle points,driving line and speeds matched exactly throughout the lap,yet o was 1.4 slower.

Still haven’t found out why that was

I class myself as a noob so yet again I may just have interpreted the data wrong,but it was definetly an exact match when over laid,off topic I know but strange anyway

I just shrugged it off in the end and stopped chasing for pole and put it down to just being a noob
 
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As promised, here answers by “Mr. D”. Please note he refers to the above posts and to the real car (if I do not note differently).

About tires not much to say, they related some issues but are out of our control (here Mr. D refers to the temperature and I explained that are mainly surface temperatures… I can only add to be aware of the fact internal pressure in the model doesn’t grow as in real tires), only thing to say is that we have a maximum camber allowed in qualifying and races, Q no more than 4,2 front and no more than 2,5 rear and in races, no more than 4 front and 2,3 rear… if you can, “read between the lines” can give you an idea of what camber we should use!

About bumpstops and dampers “Mr. D” give us other great info:

Bumstops, are like another “Spring” to control the end travel of the damper (look at the picture attached)
upload_2018-8-20_18-49-9.png

This picture is one taken from internet to understand what happened in the bumpstops and doesn´t mean this are used in real life, it is just an illustration of what is.

So if you combine both, spring and bump stop, you have “like a two different load springs in one on the damper travel”: the normal springs that start to work and then after a travel in damper the bumpstops start to work and change the spring load. With packers that is a rigid part you can start to come in the bumpstop before or after depends of the “free gap” you leave in dampers and is what you have to calculate. Think this words you know and understand, so at this point you will think that is used as a third element or third spring…

When to use it?
In the 99% of championships that exists in the world the thirds element are forbidden, so bumpstop are used to supply this third element, but this is the question. We need a part of the damper to keep the car in the straight line in one height preventing to come down a keep a good ride height, but in other way we need this bumpstop not to be used on turns!! This give an undesirable behavior in car (for sure the problem you have) on turning and on braking/acceleration. So this is the question, used on straight to maintain best aero possible and don´t disturb on turns.

I have read in forum some are 1.4 sec away from other drivers and when they check the brake, line and every match in motec lines…so that is impossible… there much be a huge difference anywhere. Other than these aliens use a tricky setup… maybe they have a calculator to set the setup in the correct way and think less in use the feeling. We use in the team a simulation program to set all the parts of the car and the most important part is the ride height with the pressures… this give a big difference in the behavior of the car!!!

@Daniel Surace starts to think in the correct way, go lower is the exact way to go faster but, need to take in account the rake on straight lines to get the maximum speed and on turns get the maximum downforce, so need to work to use the best rake to use all the track the aero potential, especially on next two rounds, SPA and Monza.

What I would do is use the sector times… (Think I´m giving too much info, LOL) what you should do is use the sector times. To check witch sector is more determinant for the track and set the car for that sector, but check not to f**k the other too much. This means use the sector to know in what you can lose less and were you can win more… For SPA there are two fast sectors and one “slow” were the mechanical grip is more used, now you need to check what sector(s) is/are the most important and tune the car to that/those sector(s) and try not to f**k the other ones….

In Monza the same two slow corners, 1st Variante and 2nd variante and the rest are mid to high speed corner… check what part is more important and tune the car…

This is easy to say the reason we use a race simulator: to know better what we have to fit in car and also to know what part is more important… also we use a calculator to know were to move the balance and how much.

In Spa I would do go as lower as possible but taking in account the big bumps in Eau Rouge that breaks the aero, so try not to touch too much on the ground, trying to keep a good rake in straights lines that can give you a good top speed. Then, for second sector, work in a mix of good aero for the turns 10 and 11 and work in a bit of mechanical grip and prepare very well the last chicane…

For Monza, as someone said is a fast track, so try to go as fast as possible, look for the slipstreams... (old trick) and try not lose too much on chicanes, Lesmo and Ascari.

Think with that they have some info about what to do.

May I add? Now who will move to organize a double online event SPA / Monza?
 
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Hi guys, any news about some kind of event on 2 fast tracks like spa and monza closed to real races?

Mr.D could also take a look at some motec data you can post here... Do you remember old posts regarding that?
 
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Will pm you the setup, replay and Motec data from the race we had at Monza last week.
We are also having another one next Thursday where I will be using a completely different setup together with all channels enabled for telemetry, if still interested will send those too when done.
 
Well here is the analysis of one fast lap in Monza and the comparison with the second fast lap in Monza, taken from the laps ran by one of the participants to the race organized by https://simracing-gp.net/events.php

Data were analyzed by "Mr.D", chief engineer of a GP3 team. You already know how much important was the contribute of "Mr.D" in developing the mod and he is still in contact with me.

"Mr.D" content:

Firstly I have cut the track in the three sectors to know about if we can see something different on car behaviors to actuate in setup; ideally is to fit some laps to know if a problem persists or if just one lap and then there is no problem on that spacific turn.

Will be great if we can see data from various drivers so we can compare between different styles, that give better to know were to win or lose.

Sector one fast lap.
upload_2018-9-11_14-27-7.png

On first Variante we can´t see the peak of the braking, I know that is a common problem… in this matter we can´t do so much, but I think you can brake a bit later and continue braking with a first input of brake with that you make the tires working better and maximize the acceleration circle on entry, so you can get a bit more grip on entry and with a bit of late braking gain a little time… also in the transition you can use the steering from one side to other a bit faster so it allows you to transfer a bit more quick the load and can positioning the car better, also allows you a bit more gas between the two corners; the exit seems quite good.

In this corner as we can´t see any problem, this can mean or you are not going fast enough through the corner or the car is perfect and no need to touch nothing, you can see in the times comparing with other drivers...  i´m joking.. normally is to have a bit OS on exit when back on power.


Second Sector fast lap.
upload_2018-9-11_14-27-57.png

In second Variante the more important turn is the second that gives the way to fast corners, so in that corner needs to work on the position to back as soon as possible on power on second vertex, as can see you are working on the mid speed and forgot the important part, the exit…

You can see there is something strange in turn one of Lesmo: I don´t know because there is a back on power in the middle of the corner, this unbalance the car in a fast corner!!!! Could be a US on back on power but it seems strange, will see later on comparative analysis. Second Lesmo will do one test, back on power a bit later or more smooth, so can back on power to full when the car have finish to turn, or close to finish; it seems that back on power is too early and before the car turns and creates some US, on steering can´t be seen well (can be seen on LatG a leak of grip).


Third Sector fast lap.
upload_2018-9-11_14-28-42.png

On Ascari, as in first of Lesmo, we need to see as one turn: brake late on entry with the first input of steering on last part of brakes (with end of brake) and then can be back on power smooth over the first apex and using all kerb to gain as much speed for the next straight line. Here we need to see the car steering working, on the contrary it seems your car is going by railway: you need to push a bit more.

On Parabolica, same problem? Understeer on back on power? Be more smooth on gas or wait a bit more. It is a fast corner, but let the car takes some grip and then work on exit, as I told before this kind of driving unbalances the car and does strange things on car.



Comparative analysis: two fast laps (color = fast and black = second fast)

First sector.
upload_2018-9-11_14-30-17.png

As you can see more or less same problems to avoid in two laps, but as we have talked before a bit more fast change on steering lets your car in better position so can back on power a bit early on exit (needs to work on internal part…)


Second sector.
upload_2018-9-11_14-30-53.png

In second Variante, as you can see in color trace, working less in mid corner lets you a bit more gas on exit: if you prepare the exit it will be no time to gas on middle and gas to come out faster and gain more speed on exit.

First Lesmo, more quick around the corner!!! Is a corner not a chicane and avoids unbalance when loading the car in fast turns!!!


Third sector.
upload_2018-9-11_14-31-33.png

Here in Ascari, on black you try to do with no power on mid: look the gas on exit.. more early, try to be more gently on exit. Line seems same in both laps.

In Parabolica a bit of mess, are you using the good line… best line is taking the apex down the marshal’s cube early on entry, turn kissing the internal kerb and then back on power and open line to full gas.

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I personally think the explanations of Mr.D and the time he is dedicating to all of us bring the GP3 mod to the highest level of ever, something never seen before.

He asks for the next step: to have data of 2 drivers with personalized setup for each of them, taken during the same race to be able to identify driving style vs. setting of the car.
Race should be on one of the real-world circuits of the GP3 championship, a good track mod, to be closed to the real circuit.
http://www.gp3series.com/Calendar/
If some league can organize a special event or finding time for something of similar, also if there are other active events in this month with the GP3 mod, I'll be pleased to go further.

Thank you.
 
I tr
Slow Motion said:
I personally think the explanations of Mr.D and the time he is dedicating to all of us bring the GP3 mod to the highest level of ever, something never seen before.
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And you too because his analysis needs another analysis to understand and correctly implement in rF2. Maybe Mr. D drives it also in rF2 and wants as realistic mod as possible:)
Closest to this dedication is the Norma LMP3 made by S397 as it was further fine-tuned by closely working with a racing team( i.e. it resulted in yet another Endurance cars' tires update). And I thought I'm obsessed about realism:)
You said that you also worked with real GP3 drivers so I'm sure some of them could use it for training with decent sim rig. Probably the mod is already quite accurate, below and on the limit. I believe the hardest part to get right, is over the limit handling, which is generally not accurate in rF2.
So does this latest work mean we could expect another physics update/refinement?

And thanks for your work and dedication!
 
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Apparently we just did Sochi, next race on GP3s Calendar.
So thankfully I have not deleted the logs yet, something I routinely do to save SSD space.
I will make sure to send in the MOTEC data, also including the fastest lap in the race, and bring this to the attention of the other members should they like to drop in their data as well.
I like what you are doing here.

EDIT: Well scratch that.
Apparently I had disabled most of the logging channels so there's hardly anything of interest there except from ride height.
Will still let people know they can send in their data though.
 
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avenger82 said:
I tr

And you too because his analysis needs another analysis to understand and correctly implement in rF2. Maybe Mr. D drives it also in rF2 and wants as realistic mod as possible:)
Closest to this dedication is the Norma LMP3 made by S397 as it was further fine-tuned by closely working with a racing team( i.e. it resulted in yet another Endurance cars' tires update). And I thought I'm obsessed about realism:)
You said that you also worked with real GP3 drivers so I'm sure some of them could use it for training with decent sim rig. Probably the mod is already quite accurate, below and on the limit. I believe the hardest part to get right, is over the limit handling, which is generally not accurate in rF2.
So does this latest work mean we could expect another physics update/refinement?

And thanks for your work and dedication!
Click to expand...

We can say the GP3 is running last weeks of his life and I haven't confidential info about the new car (I only read what the press is writing), because I'm not interested into developing the new incoming FIA Formula 3 and the current build 2.15 is the last one. We could update the mod only in case of something new in rF2 features, that deserves the update.
 
AMillward said:
Ah, that's a shame. There's not a lot of F3 stuff out there.
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Don't expect a modern F3 car to be anything like the cars we grew to love from the previous era, high downforce, low power,low mechanical grip with critical high speed handling.
The sort of F3 you are thinking of you can find in AMS.
So maybe that will be transferred over to rF2 as part of the latest deal?
I wish.
 
Slow Motion said:
and the current build 2.15 is the last one
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OK I thought this analysis with Mr. D could lead to some further physics updates/refinement. Anyway I believe it's already one of the most realistic cars in rF2 (including official ones).
christos_Swc said:
The sort of F3 you are thinking of you can find in AMS.
So maybe that will be transferred over to rF2 as part of the latest deal?
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You mean upcoming Reiza pack? If yes then it's been known for a quite some time they will add the following cars:
Metalmoro AJR
Metalmoro MR18
MCR Sports 2000
Formula Vee

https://forum.reizastudios.com/threads/reiza-general-update-fresh-news-all-around.4559/
But I surely hope it won't be the last Reiza pack for rF2 because I'm a bit disappointed with current car selection.
 
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