FIA Formula Two Williams JPH1B Released

Love the F2 at the moment, even with its flaws. That doesn't mean I don't want these issues to be fixed. First I fell in love with the car and after the initial laps I started to notice these flaws. I guess ISI has taken notice of this by now so no need to prove right to those people, who are saying everythings alright.
 
Tuttle said:
I agree with you (100%) but the fact some people are trying to deny an issue doesn't help at all. Do not help ISI to understand what's going on and do not help other guys who're reporting the same issue.

Apart from this I agree there is no need to start a loop or a war like this...:)
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this is the thing I and others have pointed out very specific issues and then there are simply a bunch of people that deny them but then dont provide any evidence to back up there pionts.

The fact is people bieng critical only want to help ISI if RF2 goes gold and you cannot do basic things like power of of corners or there are massive holes in the FFB , or the mod system and UI confuses the hell out of noobs then why is anyone going to play it over the other driving simulators ?

Though mind you it seems allot of people are happy with the F2 regardless so maybe isi should not bother improving things.
 
The evil of good is better and we all want better, as I'm sure ISI does.

What I do find a bit odd is the furious desire for perfection from those using a notchy old tech wheel to experience it.
 
privatebrian said:
Look if the problem is being looked at by ISI and being fixed what is the problem?
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because people are denying theres any problem lol....even though the problem was acknowledged by ISI themselves...........the very people that people are worshipping, who say there is no problem.

so...do you see the problem.

jameswesty makes a good point about being critical for the good.
i mean...that is why im on here. Simgames are few and far between, and the better we can make them, the better it is for everyone.

thats why ive spent time trying to come up with well rounded arguments, and using key evidence in video form, to show the various issues.

the one thing i couldnt really show was what i was 'feeling' with ffb - but now that bloke from finland with the plugin has come to the rescue - now clearly showing what ffb force is being applied. And the problem is now frankly totally undeniable.

ISI need people like us to highlight the issues...as its the only way they'll expand their fanbase - especially with AC coming up.

I spent what..5 years of my life with rfactor. FOr RF2 to come up short the way it has (So far, yes i know its in beta)... well i almost took it personally lol.

i thought the whole issue about low speed grip/low speed physics/narrow slip angle issues were all well known themes from RF1 - thats the impression i got from the people i play with mainly in FSR.

i come here and theres nothing but praise. so i was surprised.
all the issues from RF1 have carried over to RF2, and its dissapointing coz it was a real opportunity to create a brand new baseline game, which modders could then make amazing.

i just hope theres enough scope in the game for modders to fundamentally change the way the cars handle, and the FFB.

and actually theres about 6-7 people now who are on 'my side' on this thread....so it simply isnt as clear cut as the 'for ISI' side are making out to be.
 
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Jameswesty said:
Well you would hope so , It would definitely be nice if specific isi staff members communicated with the community and especially said what they are doing.

Evan if it was only every two weeks that they did round up and a quick comment on key points and developments.

Thats the thing if you are going to do an open beta like this then its probably a good idea to communicate with the community more than they have though its up to each company to do what they want I'm just saying based on my exsperance with other companies that do the whole open beta thing.

Tim makes a good effort but most the time he doesn't seem to know one way or another when it comes to specific issues ( not that he should know ) obviously you don't want to tread on peoples toes in a company and you don't want to accidently say something that's not true or a miscommunication.

I'm not knocking what tim does and I'm grateful for the time and effort he puts into the forum I just think ISI would maybe do better if core staff communicated more with the dedicated fanbase. Other than saying Its beta and unfinished.
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You are not going to get core staff posting all day to answer questions. That kind of request shows quite a big lack of understanding of everything previously stated about the team, the time, and the priorities between both. Also, just simply making it a different period, two weeks, whatever, that is still outside of the method in which ISI works. Not to mention the fact that most people don't have as thick of a skin as I do, and I don't think it's a good idea to force someone who may dislike forum interaction to come here.

It is also easy to miss the communication which has been happening for the community as a whole, when you are instead focused on the fact that YOUR posts and the points YOU are interested in aren't getting the answers you wish they did. Not everything can or will be answered.

Our intention, as if you need to be told this again, is to produce a realistic simulation. According to Formula Two drivers, the Formula Two car in rFactor2 simulates many of the positive - and negative - characteristics of the real car, whether you like those characteristics or not. There are some things we are set to receive more data on over the next few months, we'll work with that and who knows what difference it will make, but if the car still has a characteristic you do not like, then is has a characteristic you don't like.
 
GTrFreak said:
Love the F2 at the moment, even with its flaws. That doesn't mean I don't want these issues to be fixed. First I fell in love with the car and after the initial laps I started to notice these flaws.
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Same here - I can confirm/feel the steering issue now but still love driving the car. FFB is doing only part of the feedback we are given from the sim so IMHO it's not automatically total crap if one part of the whole is not fully functioning as it should. :) Anyway it's very interesting to see what the outcome of this issue will be - wether it turns out to be fault in FFB, physics or is it a natural result of F2 vehicle characteristics (steering geometry, suspension, weight bias, etc.). By personal real-life experience I know that in some circumstances it's possible to have zero force from tires so steering wheel doesn't do anything (or even "negative forces"). However I think it was with FWD car on snow. My guess is there's something slightly wrong with the FFB implementation or F2 mod AND F2 has such a steering geometry etc. that forces are weak. Also unfinished contact patch may be part of the issue. But we'll see in time... :)

I tend to agree with James that with currently modeled physics controlling slides and feeling the slip angle is harder compared to real-life. But we have been told the tire contact patch isn't fully modeled yet so probably/hopefully things are going to improve in the future. However I fear it still won't be enough for James etc. I believe rF2 is never going to be like nKPro in terms of "progressive" grip loss/gain. In real-life, especially with these kind of high downforce/stiff suspension/rigid tyre vehicles losing/gaining grip is a violent event - wether we like it or not. I find it challenging and some may find it frustrating.

I think driving a sim is harder than driving a real thing and hence requires more practicing, learning, etc. On the other hand only few of us are in such a good shape to be able to withstand those G-forces F2's would provide. So it's all relative. :)

I won't go into details or try to back up my words by showing videos, etc. because I really don't have time for that. Spinelli has already said everything needed to be said and I have absolutely nothing to add.
 
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Tim Wheatley said:
You are not going to get core staff posting all day to answer questions.
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I said "Evan if it was only every two weeks that they did round up and a quick comment on key points and developments. "

Tim Wheatley said:
Also, just simply making it a different period, two weeks, whatever, that is still outside of the method in which ISI works
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That's fine as I say each company has there own ways of doing things as well my point was just if you do an open beta then having more transparency is more of the norm in the games industry. and its strange for ISI to deviate from that when its an opertunity to capitalise on free promotion and gain a more active and dedicated fan base.

Tim Wheatley said:
I don't think it's a good idea to force someone who may dislike forum interaction to come here.
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that's fine I would not expect them to , I would not expect a lengthy discussion I'm just taking about summarising key points of whats been developed. and having a centralized post that answers key comunity misconceptions or questions evan ones that happen repeatedly.


Tim Wheatley said:
It is also easy to miss the communication which has been happening for the community as a whole, when you are instead focused on the fact that YOUR posts and the points YOU are interested in aren't getting the answers you wish they did. Not everything can or will be answered.
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Well I'm not focused on "my posts" there is just allot of back and fourth because of the lack of official communication at times and the way some community members will blindly defend things without providing any evidence or reason.

I appreciate ISI are very communicative with people making mods and developing with ISI and other parts of the forum , but there is certainly a disconnect between ISI and the lay user. especially when it comes to questions about detailed aspects of the physics.


Tim Wheatley said:
Our intention, as if you need to be told this again, is to produce a realistic simulation. According to Formula Two drivers, the Formula Two car in rFactor2 simulates many of the positive - and negative - characteristics of the real car, whether you like those characteristics or not. There are some things we are set to receive more data on over the next few months, we'll work with that and who knows what difference it will make, but if the car still has a characteristic you do not like, then is has a characteristic you don't like.
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Its clear that the car when over the limit is not behaving like the real car , If ISI cannot see that that's fine though id like to think its just the case that the physics are unfinished.

If it is the case that ISI dont see it as an issue then People that do see it can move onto other simulators or wait for mod teams that can produce realistic ( or at least consistent) car behaver over and on the limit.

Obviously the game is in beta obviously ISI's final model might include aspects of the real car we can see in videos and from driving real single seater cars.





thanks for taking the time to respond.
 
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Jameswesty said:
I appreciate ISI are very communicative with people making mods and developing with ISI and other parts of the forum , but there is certainly a disconnect between ISI and the lay user.
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No there's not. Not for "lay users" who understand what their roles are.

We are here for the ride. We aren't driving :)
 
Jameswesty said:
Well that's one point I don't think anyone can argue , I don't know of any real car that does not aggressively try and centre + counter stear the car. Its simple basic physics of how cars work in that tires want to take the path of least resistance and that results in a car that will always counter steer to the path of least resistance.
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ACTUALLY, it's not simple physics. I spent 9 months working at the bridgestone racing academy next door to mosport, There was one particular day of testing that one of the cars had virtually no centre correction and no force needed to turn. I knew right away something was off and thought something was broken. Barley any force needed to be applied in low and high speed corners, and almost no centering force either. I lived with it for just that one single session (probably around 20 laps or so), reported it right away and got into a different car.

Turns out that they were trying to do something with the suspension settings, with regards to caster, camber and toe settings, and that nothing was indeed broken.

Man that felt horrible.

So, was the feel not to my liking? Yes. Was the feel not what I expected? Yes. Was there some kind of real world physics flaw happening? Of course not lol.

Once again, stop saying its simple physics, this is just how It works in real life, and this isn't etc. You are not a vehicle dynamics expert. Jumping in your road car, or even worse, watching videos where you see like 10% of what's really going on doesnt mean you know all the super complex physics and feelings and forces and etc etc etc that come into play in vehicle dynamics and overall physics.

As in the centering case I explained above (and many others you have said over the past few months) you are simply dead wrong, no if's, and's or but's.
 
Jameswesty said:
Ok I'm clearly wrong Disregard everything I said I wont bother trying to give advice or feedback as its all wrong I'm happy for other people to enjoy RF2 or anything regardless of what I think of it , I'm sure regardless of what ISI do good mods will come out in the future
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No need to act silly even you received information what you did not except :)

There are some world's best race cars that are crap to drive, but driver that can manage them can make them go faster than rest of the grid, this is something I have learned and it was not easy to accept, but it just is so.
 
Jameswesty said:
Ok I'm clearly wrong Disregard everything I said I wont bother trying to give advice or feedback as its all wrong I'm happy for other people to enjoy RF2 or anything regardless of what I think of it , I'm sure regardless of what ISI do good mods will come out in the future
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yes, in that one particular statement you were vey wrong.

I didn't say you are wrong with everything and to stop giving feedback, in fact I even thanked you and hiohaa for such informative feedback, and even agreed with you 2 (and others) about some stuff in my previous post.

So I don't know why you would reply all dramatically and get all offended.

Maybe just stop thinking you are 100% right all the time about every car and in every single situation and you won't get shot down and proved wrong like in the above post.

You just learned something you didn't know, you should be thankful of the learning experience/gained knowledge rather than just fleeing the scene because you were proved wrong. You should love to get proved wrong, I know I do, you learn, rather than going through life believing something is a certain way when in reality it's actually not.
 
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Ok. After hours testing, and FFB tweaking I got some cool results, and now I UNDERSTAND what is happening with FFB on low turns... First I copied this controller.ini infos http://isiforums.net/f/showthread.p...s-JPH1B-Released?p=97740&viewfull=1#post97740

My driver ffb strength is 107% and the rest 0%. In game I got Specific Car FFB = 1.30. And setups with low cambers looks to have a better feeling of the tires. I'm not sure.

What I'm sure is that the feeling of no FFB in the middle of low turns is happening when we pass the grip limit of the tire. I guess its the slip angle that we are talking about, when we pass that angle, tires loses grips, and so wheel feels VERY light, and with almost no FFB. If you don't turn the wheel more then u need to make the turn u can feel the AMAZING FFB, but when we pass the tire limits it feels weird. So you got drive smooth on turns to not feel the "lost of ffb". I don't know if it supposed to feel that way, I guess it just need some mechanic resistance, so the wheel do not get so light in that moments...

If this is realistic, so its a new FFB feeling that teaches how to not f.uck your tires lol...


Sry for the bad english... I tried lol
 
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