FIA Formula Two Williams JPH1B Released

[SouthPawRacer]

I'd just like to interject with a comment about tyres.

Most of you will probably know that there are two types of tyres - Bias Ply and Radial. Bias Ply tyres generally have a much higher slip angle than Radial tyres, and thus generate better grip when they're sliding. They are more common on older racing cars. That's why you see drivers hanging the rear end out and doing 4-wheel drifts in 60s F1 cars - they need to slide them to generate enough grip to get around the corners. Inversely, Radial tyres - used almost universally on modern racing cars - generate better grip when they are only sliding a tiny bit. That's the main reason why you see snap corrections to oversteer, or if there's a 4-wheel drift, it's not quite as pronounced... the maximum grip of the tyre is generated at a much lower slip angle. I wouldn't expect the F2 to be able to slide around very much, because at some point you would have to be sliding at more of an angle than the slip angle of the tyres can take. If you can balance the car in such slides, you're a very capable driver...

Re: the comments about FFB - I agree with Spinelli 100%. I don't search for every car having the exact same FFB feel, because I know that every car is set up differently with regards to suspension geometry/stiffness, etc. Many reviews of real life road cars complain of lack of steering feel, and inevitably, a racing driver will complain about steering feel if the feel in their racing car is not to their liking. If that is indeed the case in real life, then why should it not be simulated?

If the FFB of a car isn't feeling "right" to me, I search for ways in which I can change the setup of the car to get it more to my liking. Far more often than not, it's simply a case of changing the camber and caster!

Long story short: If a car is doing something strange, that it would likely do in real life with those same settings, it doesn't mean it's unrealistic - it's just simulating what would happen if those settings were applied. If it doesn't match up, then you know that there's something wrong.

 

[hiohaa]

I'd just like to interject with a comment about tyres.

Most of you will probably know that there are two types of tyres - Bias Ply and Radial. Bias Ply tyres generally have a much higher slip angle than Radial tyres, and thus generate better grip when they're sliding. They are more common on older racing cars. That's why you see drivers hanging the rear end out and doing 4-wheel drifts in 60s F1 cars - they need to slide them to generate enough grip to get around the corners. Inversely, Radial tyres - used almost universally on modern racing cars - generate better grip when they are only sliding a tiny bit. That's the main reason why you see snap corrections to oversteer, or if there's a 4-wheel drift, it's not quite as pronounced... the maximum grip of the tyre is generated at a much lower slip angle. I wouldn't expect the F2 to be able to slide around very much, because at some point you would have to be sliding at more of an angle than the slip angle of the tyres can take. If you can balance the car in such slides, you're a very capable driver...

Re: the comments about FFB - I agree with Spinelli 100%. I don't search for every car having the exact same FFB feel, because I know that every car is set up differently with regards to suspension geometry/stiffness, etc. Many reviews of real life road cars complain of lack of steering feel, and inevitably, a racing driver will complain about steering feel if the feel in their racing car is not to their liking. If that is indeed the case in real life, then why should it not be simulated?

If the FFB of a car isn't feeling "right" to me, I search for ways in which I can change the setup of the car to get it more to my liking. Far more often than not, it's simply a case of changing the camber and caster!

Long story short: If a car is doing something strange, that it would likely do in real life with those same settings, it doesn't mean it's unrealistic - it's just simulating what would happen if those settings were applied. If it doesn't match up, then you know that there's something wrong.

i mean. i dont even know where to start with this.

i'll start here. youre assuming that this game is then 100% perfect with reality.
i mean. its just mental. how do you know it matches up. you dont. AT all.

You can do what you like with the camber and caster, the FFB is nothing like what it should be. THis is a fact thats not only proven in the videos that have been posted SHOWING in graphical detail the FFB thats being applied (which for the most part is almost non existent, in terms of any kind of proper force, rather than just rattly rumble effects).

Its also proven in the fact that ISI have already acknowledged there is a problem with it.

Yes modern day single seaters have much less slip angle than a 60's f1 car, but the point is......they have a slip angle. They have enough of a slip angle that you can play with the car. Don't believe me?

Watch all the videos on youtube. Watch the video that jameswesty has posted of the guy throwing the car around.

Rf2 DOES NOT allow you to drive in this way AT ALL. If you say it does - post a video proving it.
I've posted videos of me driving to a very competitive level, and if the car steps out of line in any way, you have to do the rfactor wiggle. You cannot maintain the slide, you cannot power out of it, you can't use it to your advantage, you can't do anything.
YOu can be the most capable simracer in the world, but approach a low speed corner, and try to play with the car on the limit, on throttle, and the tyres turn to ice, and you spin off. As I said in my F2 review, the chicane at Estoril really brings out the problems with the physics perfectly.

Hence why to be fast, just like in the videos ive posted of me driving, im totally smooth and not daring to remotely go anywhere near applying full throttle until im almost totally out the apex. Im driving COMPLETELY off visuals and sound, and infact i might as well turn the FFB totally off - because then i wouldnt have to cope with the ridiculous rattling of my g25.

Not only does the FFB in its current form give zero information about the car on the limit, it actually makes things worse by rattling all over the place.

http://isiforums.net/f/showthread.php/7614-FIA-Formula-Two-Williams-JPH1B-Released?p=98382&viewfull=1#post98382

We've already established as a fact that the FFB is totally messed up, so im not even going to bother talking about that anymore. All I'll say is, if you genuinly think that these types of cars have light loose steering, you are so so mistaken, and i advise you to just do some research, maybe pop down to your local track and ask some real drivers or something, even if you dont believe me (even tho ive posted a vid of me driving a single seater).

I really do think a lot of you who are saying the physics and FFB are perfect aren't fast enough in the game and so cant comprehend what we are talking about in terms of 'on the limit' handling.

But feel totally free to prove me wrong, and post videos up or at least tell us what kind of laptimes you're doing, on what track, whether it was a trick or default setup, what fuel load, and whether the track was rubbered or not.

 

[jtbo]

I'd just like to interject with a comment about tyres.

Most of you will probably know that there are two types of tyres - Bias Ply and Radial. Bias Ply tyres generally have a much higher slip angle than Radial tyres, and thus generate better grip when they're sliding. They are more common on older racing cars. That's why you see drivers hanging the rear end out and doing 4-wheel drifts in 60s F1 cars - they need to slide them to generate enough grip to get around the corners. Inversely, Radial tyres - used almost universally on modern racing cars - generate better grip when they are only sliding a tiny bit. That's the main reason why you see snap corrections to oversteer, or if there's a 4-wheel drift, it's not quite as pronounced... the maximum grip of the tyre is generated at a much lower slip angle. I wouldn't expect the F2 to be able to slide around very much, because at some point you would have to be sliding at more of an angle than the slip angle of the tyres can take. If you can balance the car in such slides, you're a very capable driver...

Re: the comments about FFB - I agree with Spinelli 100%. I don't search for every car having the exact same FFB feel, because I know that every car is set up differently with regards to suspension geometry/stiffness, etc. Many reviews of real life road cars complain of lack of steering feel, and inevitably, a racing driver will complain about steering feel if the feel in their racing car is not to their liking. If that is indeed the case in real life, then why should it not be simulated?

If the FFB of a car isn't feeling "right" to me, I search for ways in which I can change the setup of the car to get it more to my liking. Far more often than not, it's simply a case of changing the camber and caster!

Long story short: If a car is doing something strange, that it would likely do in real life with those same settings, it doesn't mean it's unrealistic - it's just simulating what would happen if those settings were applied. If it doesn't match up, then you know that there's something wrong.

Many lower level racing cars have also something called bias slicks these days, those are told to be less harsh and easier for less experienced driver.

Maybe I should import Kantti mod to rF2, then there would be car that anyone can slide trough corners and even with good force feedback effects, or perhaps not, there would be sooo many haters for sure...

 

[TechDaddy]

This mod is incredible! The key is proper car adjustments and these things stick like glue… I can actually feel the downforces. So freaking real, love it!

 

[samuelw]

+1
I wonder if you, Jameswesty, expect to hang out the rear end more than is realistic and instead of a realistic physics model have something that resembles rally cars on a dirt road. I apologize if I am misinterpreting what you are asking for, but you seem to be asking for something unrealistic IMHO

Jim Clark said he started racing merely to see what it was like on a race track with no expectation of becoming world champion. That much I have in common with Jimmy. At 62 with no talent I have no expectation of becoming world champion but I do want to see what its like on a race track. Being poor, a virtual racetrack is the best I can do.

Keep up the good work ISI and make it as real as possible.

 

[buddhatree]

I think the people complaining the loudest need to spend some more time with this car. It takes some time for her to reveal her secrets.

This car is near perfect. But it's the most subtle and it really takes time. The panties don't come off on the first date.

I've spent 3 days with this car. Hours and hours and hours racing against the AI. It's just pure driving pleasure. The AI are fantastic. The races I've had... never had so much fun against AI (Tim you nailed it)

By far the best car currently in rF2. You can feel everything. Coming up over a little hill at Mid Ohio I got the back end loose for a second, then I felt the down force "kick in" and push it to the track.

You guys keep arguing, I'm going to race some more. Your missing out on one of the best sim cars ever made.

 

[privatebrian]

I think the people complaining the loudest need to spend some more time with this car. It takes some time for her to reveal her secrets.

This car is near perfect. But it's the most subtle and it really takes time. The panties don't come off on the first date.

I've spent 3 days with this car. Hours and hours and hours racing against the AI. It's just pure driving pleasure. The AI are fantastic. The races I've had... never had so much fun against AI (Tim you nailed it)

By far the best car currently in rF2. You can feel everything. Coming up over a little hill at Mid Ohio I got the back end loose for a second, then I felt the down force "kick in" and push it to the track.

You guys keep arguing, I'm going to race some more. Your missing out on one of the best sim cars ever made.

Nice to see someone else enjoying it...or should i say falling in love...

 

[tjc]

@James: Please dont shout? Headaches here...

+1

 

[tjc]

I think the people complaining the loudest need to spend some more time with this car. It takes some time for her to reveal her secrets.

This car is near perfect. But it's the most subtle and it really takes time. The panties don't come off on the first date.

I've spent 3 days with this car. Hours and hours and hours racing against the AI. It's just pure driving pleasure. The AI are fantastic. The races I've had... never had so much fun against AI (Tim you nailed it)

By far the best car currently in rF2. You can feel everything. Coming up over a little hill at Mid Ohio I got the back end loose for a second, then I felt the down force "kick in" and push it to the track.

You guys keep arguing, I'm going to race some more. Your missing out on one of the best sim cars ever made.

Top drawer post... agree with every word.

Love the bit about the panties lol

 

[SouthPawRacer]

i mean. i dont even know where to start with this.

i'll start here. youre assuming that this game is then 100% perfect with reality.
i mean. its just mental. how do you know it matches up. you dont. AT all.

I would like to know where exactly I said that. I'm not assuming anything. I was just saying that to my mind, it's more of a question of IF it matches up. I never said it actually does - what I'm saying is that if we are provided with data (unlikely, I know, as Tim has already said it's classified), the things you change on the car in the sim should be consistent with what happens in real life. If it isn't, then we can say that there's something wrong and that ISI need to take a close look at what exactly is happening in the sim.

That's it.

Rf2 DOES NOT allow you to drive in this way AT ALL. If you say it does - post a video proving it.
I've posted videos of me driving to a very competitive level, and if the car steps out of line in any way, you have to do the rfactor wiggle. You cannot maintain the slide, you cannot power out of it, you can't use it to your advantage, you can't do anything.

I've never had to do the rFactor wiggle in any car, in any game, ever since I started simming. I'm no alien, but I can be a reasonably competitive driver. 1:06 at Palm beach on a slightly modified default setup, and I can feel that there's more in it.

All I'll say is, if you genuinly think that these types of cars have light loose steering

I don't. Again, where did I say that?

I was not implying anything, nor was I directing the post at anyone. You'll also notice that I never said anything praising the F2... I know that it has issues and I know that ISI are looking at those issues. I was just interjecting with a few comments to maybe provide some more context to people unfamiliar with this discussion.

Your attitude is appalling.

 

[F2Chump]

Yo Spinelli.

I judge a sim by it's quality of Steering precision, FFB and physics, in that order, ie, first it must steer properly, then the FFB must be believable, and finally I can then consider how realistic I think the car behaves, granted steering and FFB are related to the physics, for example, a big 1800kg yank tank should have sharp and heavy FFB under quick change of direction.

GTR EVO and GSC do this extremely well, as for netkar, even the f1600 is heavy as hell, so it doesn't blow my doors off as much as it does other people, but it's certainly a fantastic sim and of course, works beautifully with my G27 by default.

For me, the F2 is one of rf2's worst cars.....it's floaty as hell on FFB{and is a complete joke at croft}, yet the F3.5 is well connected these days, and tbh, the F2 feels a touch centre sprung, but that could just be it's huge grip levels, something quite different again from the F3.5.

 

[F2Chump]

Keep up the good work ISI and make it as real as possible.

Even at the expense of logitech owners?

 

[MarcG]

Ok I'm clearly wrong Disregard everything I said I wont bother trying to give advice or feedback as its all wrong I'm happy for other people to enjoy RF2 or anything regardless of what I think of it , I'm sure regardless of what ISI do good mods will come out in the future

Awww that's a shame I as enjoying watching you rebut everyone's opinions again because they don't provide YouTube links to hot laps with their scalextric.

dribble dribble dribble dribble dribble dribble dribble dribble dribble dribble





I apologise Tim but it had to be said!

 

[Spinelli]

I judge a sim by it's quality of Steering precision, FFB and physics, in that order, ie, first it must steer properly, then the FFB must be believable, and finally I can then consider how realistic I think the car behaves

First priority is steering precision?? Then the physical ffb that the game sends to whatever wheel you own? AND THEN FINALLY in 3rd place comes the very physics/vehicle behaviour of the sim itself??????......

Are you serious???.....

WOW........no wonder people have such drasticaly different opinions on these forums.

 

[krivjur]

First priority is steering precision?? Then the physical ffb that the game sends to whatever wheel you own? AND THEN FINALLY in 3rd place comes the very physics/vehicle behaviour of the sim itself??????......

Are you serious???.....

WOW........no wonder people have such drasticaly different opinions on these forums.

I think F2Chump is trying to say that steering is a big factor for him if a sim if fun to drive. Yes, most of us like realism, but if at the end it's not fun we won't do it. Of course you can find the challenge of uncomfortable car, competition or overall experience with sounds and visuals fun. But we're not all the same and we enjoy different aspects of a sim racing title.

Even if F2Chump meant he judges the sim's realism by streering precision and FFB (making hardware part of the eq), I don't find it to be that outrageous statement as you make it out to be. There's still subjective perceived realism, and depending on your point of view, it's one of the goals of a simulator.

 

[Gearjammer]

FFB aside, you can't have precise steering without precise physics and a precise wheel to go along with it. Throw in FFB and then you have to rely even more on precise physics if the FFB is using logical physics to achieve the forces sent to the wheel. Your Just backwards F2Chump.

 

[krivjur]

You can have precise (feeling, steering?) physics which are unrealistic. Most arcade games would be just this if they allowed you to set controls and camera/FOV properly. They will likely fail on the FFB though. FFB is such a personal preference though that you can't say you need precise or realistic physics to generate something someone may like. There're people who like just a centering spring for example.

Of course the whole term "precise physics" is vague. First, I assume it doesn't equal realistic. Second, all real-time simulators have some inaccuracies. Third, I just think it as almost synonym to "precise steering" which I perceive as very direct response with minimal delay.

TBH, I don't want to argue, but I'm just tired of the "bashing" going on here in general (and I only read here very occasionally since launch).

 

[samuelw]

Even at the expense of logitech owners?

I am a logitech owner and am content.

 

[F2Chump]

Even if F2Chump meant he judges the sim's realism by streering precision and FFB (making hardware part of the eq),

Sure do, as this is a consumer sim and a G27 is consumer grade equipment.
If ISI want to exclude G27's and either favour another brand or price point, that's cool, just refund me and you'll never hear from me again.

 

[F2Chump]

First priority is steering precision??

That's what I get in real cars, why shouldn't I expect it in a sim?
Then I want a realistic/convincing/informative feedback source, and once I've got that, I can then and only then consider the physics, that said, this is all related, and I've said that many times, but unlike you, I start with the finished product and work backwards, I don't accept on paper numbers as anything but mumbo jumbo if the end result is unsatisfactory.