FFB: RF2 VS Assetto Corsa

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Steven Luppino, May 13, 2017.

  1. SPASKIS

    SPASKIS Registered

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    I know and they are not as helpful as FFB. G forces in the grip limit are very different for a dry or wet track. FFB provides a much more valuable information of how close to the limit you are and of what front tires are doing and how you should react with the wheel to maintain the car under control.

    I will never accept that feeling on the pants theory. Its just another perception
     
  2. vegaguy5555

    vegaguy5555 Registered

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    "G Force" I think I seen this slider in AC and always wondered what it was? Its not in the control part of the UI so I'm not sure. Does rF2 have this?
     
  3. Flaux

    Flaux Registered

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    G force in ac is same as head movement in rf2...
     
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  4. lagg

    lagg Registered

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    I think that the movements of the car give more information that the G forces. When you are in a car you know if the car has understeer or oversteer, the pitch, roll, yaw, elevations,etc. These movements give you a lot of information that most of us don't have in our cockpit. The G forces help too, but aren't the only info. With the combination of all of this is easier to find the limits.
     
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  5. Filip

    Filip Registered

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    And this is where informative unrealistic ffb comes handy
     
  6. SPASKIS

    SPASKIS Registered

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    Canned effects with no correlation to he physics undergoing cannot provide any valuable input except for placebo
     
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  7. caravan_driver

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    AC FFB effects have no information at all with the exception of high frequency vibrations from Slips.

    RF2 has 0 effects on its menu.
     
  8. vegaguy5555

    vegaguy5555 Registered

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    I disagree with this. Because there is soooo much detail missing in a simulation environment. So much so that someone could make the argument that the simulation is mostly a placebo in itself.
     
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  9. Filip

    Filip Registered

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    These "canned" efects can provide higher Immersion Value ™
    If I can feel g-forces, pitch, roll, yaw etc. through wheel it adds to my satisfaction and for me the sim becomes more valuable even if it doesn't help with lap times
     
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  10. SPASKIS

    SPASKIS Registered

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    How do you separate all those effects (over 4) from a single signal? I wonder what kind of magic formula did the author of this effect make up to embed those many effects (over 4 according to you).

    Mixing those many things in one single output can only yield garbage. It is like trying to listen to 5 different songs at the same time.

    Sorry but I will never accept this. You can believe what you want. IMO these canned effects are just noise that does not provide valuable information. IMO it is quite similar to a bad motion platform.
     
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  11. stonec

    stonec Registered

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    Sorry but your posts make no sense at all to me. First you say that all sims have no effects, then you are asking for more canned effects. The selling point of rF2 FFB is not to have canned effects and I can't understand the number of people here asking for such a thing. You talk about g-forces, pitch, roll, etc., but those are already calculated from the physics, they don't need to be added as separate effects. In fact rF1 used to add these fake effects (throttle/brake effect on steering etc.) and nobody liked it, in the end you had 30 parameters in rF1 FFB config that all had to be tuned for each mod, which was a real mess. People started to use RealFeel plugin for rF1 instead, and rF2 FFB is basically similar as RealFeel for rF1. The more sliders you add, the more difficult it becomes to fine-tune the FFB.
     
  12. Filip

    Filip Registered

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    I am not saying I feel all these effects already but I would certainly love to. I wish someone invents consumer wheel capable of all this. The more feedback the better as long as they are nicely implemented and I don't care if they can be felt through the wheel of real car, because I don't have many other aspects of real car while sitting in my chair in front of laptop. Thats why I have to compensate and I want my force feedback wheel not only to represent real cars steering wheel but also serve as a feedback device for other forces felt in that car.


    There are 3 feedback/output channels from sim to player: graphics, sound and ffb wheel.

    You and some other people are saying that ffb should not be a user preference and should be pure with only the forces that are present in a wheel of a real car.

    By same logic people shouldn't be allowed to use tyre app, delta best, virtual mirrors etc in their cockpits because they are not present in the windshiled of a real car.

    So HUD, widgets and plugins should not be user preference.

    Same with seat position, seat pitch, FOV, head physics, look ahead option ...

    Audio options should not be user preference, why is someone allowed to up the volume of tyre slipping if it is not realistic.


    Finally if not in replay mode user should be able to use only cockpit view which would look like this:




    Anyone who doesn't want to drive like this likes arcadish behaviour.
     
  13. Filip

    Filip Registered

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    What I am saying is that I want to feel as much details as possible as long as they are balanced and nicely implemented and not oversaturated and I don't care if some of those details/effects/forces are not present in a wheel of a real car.

    Haven't played rf1 so I don't know if I would like throttle/brake effect on steering, It doesn't sound appealing.
    In AMS i run pure FFB because I didn't like added effects.
    In AC i added little of all those kerbs, road, whatever.
    Btw I find rf2 best. I find it most informative and detailed but I am not sure if it is most realistic.
     
  14. SPASKIS

    SPASKIS Registered

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    For me this has nothing to do with physics. FFB does.
     
  15. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    No doubt wheel FFB tells you everything you need to know about the front end of the car, but it says very little about the rear. That's what seat-of-the-pants is for. I know placebo is a powerful thing but too many professional drivers talk about it, and it's too easy to feel even in normal road cars in everyday driving situations, to dismiss.
     
  16. SPASKIS

    SPASKIS Registered

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    OK. According to your statement, you need more info about the rear. Considering that FFB provides you all the information about front tires, it is straight forward that you would like to have the same for rear tires.

    FFB is basically scaled steering shaft torque which is the addition of the torque in each front tire. Let's create another variable (RFB) which is the addition of the torque appearing in each rear tire.

    Should we now add it to regular FFB to get a full picture of the 4 tires FFB' = FFB + RFB?
    Maybe with some factor? FFB' = FFB + k•RFB?
    Does all this makes any sense?
    IMO no.
    Anything distorting a real simulation output will be confusing for the brain. You get used to the lack of g forces and the combination of visuals and good FFB is more than enough to keep a car in the limit as many aliens show us everyday. Not only they are fast but they are consistent at the same time.

    Do we need extra effects?
    My opinion is NO.

    Give me the FFB that the wheels and steering geometry provide. For those who need the seat in the pants feeling my advice is to save some money to buy a buttkicker or a motion platform.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2018
  17. caravan_driver

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    In AC kerb effects adds non physics related rumble strips.
    Even flat kerbs have vibration and pull when this effect is used.
    This effect is available in RF2 controller.json.

    The slips effect in AC is the same as the haptic trigger on Xbox One - according to Kunos.
    I think those vibrations are nice up to a point.
     
  18. vegaguy5555

    vegaguy5555 Registered

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    I am split on this subject. You guys both make good points. We have five senses in use when driving a real car.
    1) sight
    2) sound
    3) inner ear (gyro)
    4) wheel FFB
    5) inertia
    In a sim we are are down to 1,2 and 4.
    How can we make up 3 and 5 without waiting for me to build my new motion rig and spend about $5000?

    My friends who drive my sim are frustrated with sense of speed right off the top. This is also my number one complaint. Coming into a corner thinking I'm about 30 mile an hour slower is quite annoying. This is where rF2 is a little better than AC IMO, although AC has a nice weight in their FFB with the latest DLC that is helping. Is it a 'canned effect'?

    PS thanks for this mature and informative discussion guys.
     
  19. Joe

    Joe Registered

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    Guys: surprised to see so many of you got carry away by how FFB feel. Honestly, I suggest trying a DD wheel, if you really do.
    If you really got carry away by rF2 physics sim, you shall go with a motion rig. I mean any type of motion rig, 2DoF, 3DoF, 4 DoF....does not matter. It makes day-and-night difference. Once you try motion rig, I bet you will never go back to stationery rig. Cost more $$, but worth every....believe me. Check review on 3Dof vs 6dof, vs 4dof motion sim video....

    It looks like table tennis game vs real tennis game. A table tennis player, who is trying to describe a hand/arm feel of a tennis player, will never get right. You may need a bigger ball and bounce on a far table to get a closer feel of tennis player.

    Both rF2 and AC are very good sim. How good they are? I can tell you that, with spent less than $7k on your rig, the distinction between real and simulated driving has never been so blurred. I have review video on motion rigs, 6dof vs 3dof, etc. to help people....
     
  20. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    Why does it have to be one of those? It could be nearly anything, and if only used in a context that makes sense you could easily improve your 'feel' with it. Then it won't distort anything else. You not knowing how it would/could work doesn't mean it can't.

    There were aliens in GPL with zero FFB (and only a couple of years ago I still knew at least one decent sim racer with a non-FFB wheel, and he was pretty quick and consistent too). By your argument that means we don't need any FFB.


    Hey, I get that you don't want it. That's cool. What's the harm in someone else having the option?
     

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