FFB: RF2 VS Assetto Corsa

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Steven Luppino, May 13, 2017.

  1. caravan_driver

    caravan_driver Registered

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2018
    Messages:
    145
    Likes Received:
    51
    "If it was so bad at gathering data, how come it accurately measures minimum force on different wheels?"
    I have no idea why it doesnt work for the LUT generator purpose like kunos says.
    But in this case wheelcheck just sends an increasingly percentage and asks if the wheel position changed. From Logitech:

    bool LogiPlayConstantForce(const int index, const int magnitudePercentage);

    Parameters
     index : index of the game controller. Index 0 corresponds to the first game controller connected. Index 1 to the second game controller.

     magnitudePercentage : Specifies the magnitude of the constant force effect. A negative value reverses the direction of the force. Valid ranges for magnitudePercentage are -100 to 100. Any values outside the valid range are silently clamped.
     
  2. avenger82

    avenger82 Registered

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2016
    Messages:
    818
    Likes Received:
    342
    Guys I know how to set minimum force in rF2 , how to measure it and I know how wheelcheck app works, but I was asking if there’s a similar thing as LUT. So far it seems there isn’t anything like it in rF2 (or at least FFB gamma).
     
  3. caravan_driver

    caravan_driver Registered

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2018
    Messages:
    145
    Likes Received:
    51
    It has gamma.

    But as far as know it doesnt have other options from AC adn Pcars like center boost gain and center boost range.
     
  4. RaceNut

    RaceNut Registered

    Joined:
    May 21, 2013
    Messages:
    669
    Likes Received:
    543
    If you experience a strong "Spring" feeling using the OSW, it's generally a clear indicator of soft-clipping. Any wheel will exhibit clipping if the game output is clipping; soft-clipping will result in the FFB clipping at the wheel 100% of the time.

    For that reason, I always run the OSW output high or near max and use the game-FFB strength to provide the desired force level. That way, soft-clipping is not an issue at all. The AC gain-setting can sometimes make the FFB clip - even well below 75%; I run it at 35% and never have any clipping or "springy" feeling. I approach the FFB settings in all titles using the same method and it has worked perfectly except in PC2, where soft-clipping can occur in various ways (FX vs Tone vs Volume).
     
    avenger82 likes this.
  5. Joe

    Joe Registered

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2013
    Messages:
    372
    Likes Received:
    21
    Remco Advocaat whose Master thesis on rFactor FFB comparing with real car FFB with rFactor (rF1) showed that rFactor FFB is pretty much off vs real FFB. The rF2 steering system seems to improve considerably as S397 stated, but I doubt not even close with real FFB.
    In terms of rF2 vs AC FFB, I did compare them side by side for same car and same track, search my video, rF2 showed more details and refine as well transient response. But which one is more realistic? I dont think we have any hard evidence to proof one way or other. Such endless subjective discussion probably leads us no conclusion.
     
  6. SPASKIS

    SPASKIS Registered

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2011
    Messages:
    3,155
    Likes Received:
    1,426
    If a master student did that study more than 5 years ago it would be awesome if some Independent specialized source (do they exist?) could perform a similar analysis for the new sims. I understand that the guy who made the thesis thoroughly explained how things were done and tested so it would probably much more straightforward to reproduce considering his experience and the problems he had to solve.

    I also understand that professional teams using rFpro have some type of procedure in order to adjust the FFB for the vehicle they need to simulate.
     
  7. Filip

    Filip Registered

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2017
    Messages:
    1,208
    Likes Received:
    937
    And even if we determine which is more realistic then what?
    Because ffb is a matter of preference for many unlike graphics and sound where big majority of people wants as real as possible.
    Didn't S397 add "canned" non-realistic ffb option for Formula 2 because people were complaining about it?
    Lots of people who like rf2 ffb claim they can feel tire flex. But is tire flex as pronounced in real cars if it is felt at all through the wheel?
    I probably don't want to feel real ffb in my logitech wheel while driving some power steering car on silverstone.
     
  8. avenger82

    avenger82 Registered

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2016
    Messages:
    818
    Likes Received:
    342
    Nevertheless it would be nice to have good, out of the box presets for popular wheels. If I remember correctly it detects popular wheels, but I don't know to what extend FFB is auto tuned. It could include min force, max FFB torque, and ideally reference LUT settings(especially useful for Logitech wheels).
     
  9. SPASKIS

    SPASKIS Registered

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2011
    Messages:
    3,155
    Likes Received:
    1,426
    Using the same reasoning we can also say that physics is a matter of preference.

    The problem is that some pretend to call simulation when what they like is arcadish behaviour.

    FFB is just another part from simulation you can do it right or wrong.
     
    Emery likes this.
  10. Filip

    Filip Registered

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2017
    Messages:
    1,208
    Likes Received:
    937
    Quote from web:

    But this is a Misconception about FFB..
    FFB is Meant to transmit, to your fingers and hands, what is Happening with the car and it's contact to the road.
    It is Not Meant to Simulate the Actual Steering weight of the car.
    Yes, some High end Wheels do have enough Torque for that, but that is not what consumer FFB wheels are designed for.
    I prefer a lighter wheel weight with as much road feel as possible.
    Since we have no G-Forces, It all has to come through the Wheel.


    It has nothing to do with arcadish behaviour, physics should be as realistic as possible.
    Ffb is developers interpretation which forces and with which coefficient should be transfered from physics to wheel.
    When riding the curb in T2 in Sao Paulo with F1 I can feel it in the left side of the wheel. I am not sure if real F1 drivers feel the same in their wheel but for me it adds to immersion.
    If you take same car in iRacing, AC and RF2 they can probably feel completely different in ffb.
    Question for you Spaskis, which sim do you think has most realistic ffb?
     
  11. vegaguy5555

    vegaguy5555 Registered

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2017
    Messages:
    960
    Likes Received:
    505
    They all claim to be 'most' realistic. Hell.... AC's been claiming that since tire mod 5. And I don't mind anyone trying their best. That's why I support as much as I can.
    But one thing I can't understand is how can any sim not have 'canned effects' without inertia? That's a pretty big hole in the driving experience.
     
  12. SPASKIS

    SPASKIS Registered

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2011
    Messages:
    3,155
    Likes Received:
    1,426
    I don't accept such a quote regarding what FFB should be. Who writes that? God?
    I have a very clear conception of what i should expect from FFB and how the lack of required torque should be managed.

    I have not tried Iracing so I can't give an opinion on that. IMO rF2 FFB (and physics) is the best compared to AC or PC. I can't talk on Automobilista but I would understand is close to rF2.
     
  13. patchedupdemon

    patchedupdemon Registered

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2017
    Messages:
    1,602
    Likes Received:
    1,151
    Never heard anyone say ffb is subjective,and a personal thing.
    It is what it is,from the physics,or should I say,it should be from the physics with no added effects.

    I’m not against games giving options to use add on effects,just as long as you can turn the damn things off,and have the pure signal
     
  14. mesfigas

    mesfigas Registered

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2015
    Messages:
    1,722
    Likes Received:
    830
    i don't understand it......
    isn't suppose the force feedback that we receive from the steering wheel to be the actual physics from the car we drive ?.
    i mean the combination of road and car physics. tires - springs - everything that rf2 can calculate with algorithms and mathematics under the law of physics.
     
  15. SPASKIS

    SPASKIS Registered

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2011
    Messages:
    3,155
    Likes Received:
    1,426
    Have you ever heard a real driver complaining about FFB? I haven't.
     
  16. Mulero

    Mulero Registered

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2012
    Messages:
    351
    Likes Received:
    153
    On the FFB not as they do not have, but on the direction, continuously. Look at the review of any modern car, usual comments are usually that the direction is very smooth, it does not transmit what happens in the front end, which is imprecise ...

    Things of the power steering.
     
  17. LokiD

    LokiD Registered

    Joined:
    May 3, 2017
    Messages:
    1,282
    Likes Received:
    1,216
    is this really worth debating over anymore guys? Think any debatable aspect of this topic has been over discussed already.
     
  18. SPASKIS

    SPASKIS Registered

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2011
    Messages:
    3,155
    Likes Received:
    1,426
    They do have the equivalent of FFB which is the reaction in the wheel. The direction is a different thing which affects FFB but has nothing to do itself with the topic in question which is FFB.

    Drivers typically complain about the car being difficult to drive, oversteer or understeer except the one who wins that always congratulates his engineers because the machine was perfect.
     
    vegaguy5555 and Ari Antero like this.
  19. Filip

    Filip Registered

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2017
    Messages:
    1,208
    Likes Received:
    937
    They have g forces
     
  20. Filip

    Filip Registered

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2017
    Messages:
    1,208
    Likes Received:
    937
    All sims have ffb derived from physics, no effects. Physics is similar, why does ffb feel so different?
     

Share This Page