Basically how almost all economy works, regular customers end of the line are the ones bringing the income. ALL companies are dependent on regular customers like you and I. So do not try to over complicate these things. In game development players/customers are the main source for income. Of course ISI has also other customer base regarding Pro versions of rF and engine licensing. I find it very odd if ISI would not take customer feedback from these areas into consideration. Of course the feedback is quite possibly much more useful as the customers are professionals like ISI. Anyway, you cant become arrogant towards the user base basically giving you the money. So yes, if I have a customer who pays me money and he has something to say I think he is entitled to that. Customer should have any right and a possibility to do that. Then it is my job to filter that noise and see if there is something useful. This is basically what EVERY game developer does these days if they sell constant development / beta / early access software. So, I believe that giving feedback is a customer right and that should be supported. Especially with products that are actively in development. That does not mean it is okay be a jerk and insult those making the product. I personally feel that what ISI does is more than enough for me, we have moderated forum with official replies from staff.
There are good ways to give feedback and bad ways. If people just mash their keyboard "WAA WAA WAA!" the response you get is negative. There is a certain amount of respect on each side of the metaphorical fence we have between developers and ourselves. No reply from anyone official should never really be taken as a sign of no progress or an insult. I feel like there is a certain need for gratification for getting a response. It's like people who beg for a retweet on twitter from a celeb they follow... just for the gratification. I am so glad that there are others out there that "get it". They understand there are humans behind these keyboards and there are good and bad ways to go about interacting. The louder you shout, doesn't always get the right response, that is something we learned at primary school. You guys have restored some of my faith back in humanity, all is not lost
Some good posts in here, especially those focussing on positive criticism. However, recently i felt the increase in negativity and the more vocal whining are not just isolated events. We've seen an increase in negativity and even an increase in bans to counter that behaviour and whilst 1 or 2 users certainly deserved it or asked for it, others where questionable. Not the bans per se but the reasons why. Imo a big part of this is cause and effect, i think ISI could or should do a better job communicating things to us. No matter how development go's, there are too many question marks surrounding rf2, too many unanswered questions and vague things. For example the release notes are not always definite, there could be items done but not mentioned as Tim mentioned, last build we did notice differences but it was unsure where they came from (realroad) Also a bit more clarity would help allot in terms of communicating why certain things are not done yet. UI for example, server browser, etc. Place them in each Build Note as known issue (and reason) and it would shut up a lot of peeps going around in circles or coming in just to complain. Because no mater how valid, everyone is getting fed up with the UI being mentioned over and over again. enough already. When a build is epic enough i can see why ISI would let the build speak for itself. but on other occasions more clarity would seem the way forward. The increased negativity is partly due to this i think, we keep going around in circles on items and it gets worse every time a new build arrives without a proper explanation on why or why not. It leaves people guessing and that's never going to go well. And with increased negativity it is all too easy to start ignoring them 'because whiners'. that's also a slippery slope sometimes, just ignoring whiners because they whine is ignoring the underlying frustrations of which quite a few could be valid but just not communicated well enough. Personally i'm patient enough and can accept some things not being as i would want them or even accept some reoccurring frustrations. (Although i must admit having written a few negative replies recently but decided not to post them) (and i'm far less patient as a league admin as must admit) But i do miss some sort of transparency from ISI, something that tells me its fine, its going to be fixed, reasons why, etc. I'm much more willing to accept oddities when i know why and i assume most others would as well. for example the tile/list option in the UI never works, always going back to tiles and its annoying as hell. and i don't understand why ISI don't fix it. a daily reoccurring frustration that never go's away. If i know why this was, and perhaps there's a valid reason why....fine. But atm it just adds to the other items that become frustrating in navigating rf2. Tim said before he doesn't want to bug the dev's for every item they have worked on, imo that's exactly what he should do. get some clarity, bring some tranquillity back into this place. Sorry for the long post
I'm not waiting for anything . Too busy racing Regarding expectations, my expectations are that I am going to enjoy the heck out of the build like I do all of them. . And, if there is a disabling problem I will just revert to an earlier build. No problem. I race offline only. I enjoy when things improve and have no control over when they don't. I've learned to accept rf2 for what it is atm and that is not hard because it is amazing. One thing many may not understand is that there are things happening behind the scenes in builds and some of them may support a large leap forward when least expected. Even a build like the current one may be unearthing issues that could otherwise be missed until a later build. There are many dependencies in various physics areas. And, unlike many think, there ARE dependencies between graphics and physics. It's called release timing, testing, forum support, etc. overhead and general complexy that comes with EVERY function point in software. This also applies to life. The more you try to squeeze into it the more problems you will have. I tell this to my wife when she overbooks and over commits on things but she still does it anyway and when three teenagers spend the night and tell stories about murder to my six year old, who do you think will be staying up with her when she is then afraid to go to spleep?
I think that explains it. My biggest issue has been around for like 2 years, that is, neutral to negative SLI performance. The realization that it may be years more before it gets fixed (if it ever gets fixed) definitely leads to frustration. And though we all knew we were buying a product still in development, two years and beyond seems like a long time to remain patient.
Quite often negatively structured negative feedback (as apposed to thoughtfully structured negative feedback) comes across as being about the person posting more than the software. It's easier for everyone reading to dismiss the post. That's the main frustration really from my perspective at least... Negative feedback is extremely useful, but it has to be structured in a way where it's actually about the product, not the poster, to get anywhere with other people on the forum and probably the devs, too.
I just want some glimmer of hope that a Nascar rule package will be added.....Christ it can't be hard, you had the basic rules in rfactor 1. Give us that and you'll see more action from the oval guys, I've been waiting a year for a response...loosing hope by the week.
At the end of the day, I, like many have expressed an opinion, an idea or a desire for more. I never mean for what I say to be anything against anyone but more constructive. I do like the driving of the Sim. I think the Tire Model, Force Feedback and the overall feel is usually well ahead of most other Sims albeit dependent on the Mod/Car/Track combo. I think it's missing options and visuals. This is what gives me hope and makes me stick around observing and waiting; http://youtu.be/Jqyu5nzMnLU http://youtu.be/c68dllriRtg http://youtu.be/dvDdupzTffo
If artists weren't given foot animation before they could release Karts, then they would have to go back to the subject once foot animation is there, redo their work, repackage, test and release updated karts later.... So additional work because some feature was missing before first Karts release. In the end, diverting a programmer now may save some time later. Sometimes things aren't that obvious from inside of development team, as they appear to people outside. Like I said (here ) - priorities aren't the only thing determining development schedule. You also have resources and dependencies.
I would like to think that.... If people are struggling with way the ISI devs do their thing, there is nothing to stop anyone making their own sim.... nothing, go right ahead
Perfect. I assume everyone here wants the same thing - for rFactor 2 to become a great driving sim (if you don't consider it to be one already). Even the negative posters must want this (?), or they wouldn't be here, so I'll assume the posts are made more out of frustration than any personal issues with ISI. They don't read well though, and soon an atmosphere is created. I can't be bothered with the arguments anymore so I don't post much. I support the sim by driving it, I look forward to the updates/new content, and I post if I feel I have something worth reporting. Now hurry up with those Karts!!
I understand, but remember I was replying to the suggestion that foot movement is purely a 3d modelling thing. I would still counter that the artists having to retouch foot animations later is overall a better option. Here's a simplistic choice: next build allows the release of a kart mod that includes foot movement next build includes 3 modifications to existing code: wetness effect on rubber grip, slowed realroad/wetness effects, and .wet configuration for all 13 sessions separately. Unfortunately foot animations aren't in yet. Given this hypothetical I'd take option 2 every time, because it benefits all racing. It might mean the 3d artists have to rework some foot animations later, though that's not necessarily true either. Obviously this isn't a realistic scenario; we don't know what the development choices are, whether any of those 3 things are going to be included as well as foot animation, what else is being done that might hinder one or both options, etc etc etc... So yes, I've simplified the situation with my stated preference. Weather and realroad are 2 of the major improvements over rF1 and they would both be benefited massively by those 3 things I mentioned (not only those of course, but compared to other 'wishes' they really would be relatively simple changes). On the other hand I think you could drive kart mods for a year or two without foot movement and not really worry that much about it. *would benefit all tarmac racing
When you look just at nearest build, then this is how it seems. But in a longer run, it may be better to use time more efficiently, rather than advance one feature just to create delay later. It would be nice, but such activities have two consequences: - they consume time - and trust me, the more answers you give to people, the more questions they will ask. - they distract developers - you really want your staff to be able to focus on their tasks. Note than many AAA game companies only do some press releases and feature videos, while not getting involved with community in any other way than providing support email address. But create a forum and people will demand more of you, than they would if you hadn't
Building a forum and share development with customers is a double edged weapon. On one side it help customers with their problems, and this can help improve the product, but on the other side, waste a lot of resources to keep it updated and to check all discussions, and the risk is to lose more potential customers due bad users than what you can help. God may save your soul if you start to listen to forum users. I've seen modding projects of a famous fighter simulator (Microprose Falcon 4.0) aborted due bad forum policies, and others that to be able to see the light had to be done in secret, and by secret I means it. So, at the end of the day, you can have RF2 today, make Tim's hair white, and get frustration when your "me want" moments are broken, or get RF2 someday in a future so far that RF2 would be considered a myth by then. I like to hear what boil in the pot too, and what I will receive in the next update, but I like RF2 so much as it is, that I enjoy it uncaring of what feature will be added or fixed and when. It' amazing, even just going around with a X car on a Y track, without bothering of setups or laps time.
Laughing out loud here, as usual! I've seen this same cycling conversation for... er... 5 years? 1) People loosing their hopes due the slow progress (when there is any) and cry out their frustration. 2) A random guy wants to seem the most fair person in the world and starts to moan about moaners with the "it'll be ready when it's ready" and other pathetic stuff, trying to control what other people should or shouldn't post. 3) A endless philosophical conversation regarding the right of complaining, what's is a beta, what is be paid for or buying something starts. 4) A new build full of bugs is out. That's really entertainment. And now, it's 2014!
