Marc Collins
Registered
As I said above, I will ask him. And I did.
Maybe you and Tuttle should discuss techniques?
Croft Circuit, UK - v1.0 (last update:2013.04.10)
As I said above, I will ask him. And I did.
Maybe you and Tuttle should discuss techniques?
Tuttle
Technical Art Director - Env Lead
Stop being a dick on everything please.
Marc Collins
Registered
Likewise.
I suggested earlier that others defer to your obvious insider knowledge. lasercutter disagreed with YOU, not me. Is it impossible that either one of you has anything to learn from the other? One of you is wrong and I have no clue as to who it is. But a lot of people in the community would like to know the definitive answer to the question whether the source files are really needed to fix the problem properly. Informing lasercutter how he is wrong, or vice versa--just a sharing of technical facts--would be helpful. You are also free to say nothing because you already said what you think.
Insulting me rather than addressing the technical issues isn't adding any value to this discussion thread, the resolution of the issue, me, you, or lasercutter. Nor will it dissuade me from wanting to know the answer to the question.
Tuttle
Technical Art Director - Env Lead
I don't think Lasercutter it's gonna tell you the way to reverse eng. a GMT, without the original source. Even with the agreement from the author, people CAN'T post tutorials on how to ripoff contents. So don't ask anyone please.
For sure I'm not gonna explain you something like that.
So, let's try again;
if you want to fix those trees you need the ORIGINAL MAX scene from the author, which means, his agreement too.
For sure I'm not gonna explain you something like that.
So, let's try again;
if you want to fix those trees you need the ORIGINAL MAX scene from the author, which means, his agreement too.
Euskotracks
Registered
I create my tracks using BTB and converting them to rF2 using 3dsimed. BTB does not support face billboarding so I have to include all my BB trees with 3dsimed as well.
For that, I isolate BB trees from original ISI tracks to generate seed objects to be planted. I change textures for diversity.
I have never had to change any transparency or alpha value so I am not sure about the result of doing so.
I do know that the way they rotate to face the spectator when reexporting the GMT with 3dsimed is not exactly the expected one. However the result is sufficiently good for most cases. I am not sure if Dave Noonan is aware of this. I will check at his forum.
My point is that providing information on how to solve issues about BB objects with 3dsimed has nothing to do with ripping. Furthermore, many authorised conversions are done using 3dsimed. Like myself many people don't know how to use 3dmax but can easily use 3dsimed to do the job. Also, in many cases the authorisation to further work on a track is granted in the release notes of the track. That's the case of rF2 nords or the jarama track I converted long time ago. However, I have never seen a link to the original source in those cases.
It should be also noted that for some modders limited by BTB. 3dsimed becomes, at certain stage of a project, the "original track source". Modifying things in the original BTB project implies redoing many things and working very carefully to avoid messing things. Supporting this tool is supporting modders. Many abandoned projects can be and are being easily improved using it.
I think this tool deserves a respect and should not be treated as a ripping tool.
By saying all this I think the treatment Marc Collins has received is completely unjustified.
He did things right IMO and was insulted. As he said, he didn't publish anything and asked for permission to fix things using 3dsimed. When being told that it was not technically possible to do what he pretended, lasercutter disagreed and Marc asked for a clarification about it.
What came next was completely out of context. I want to believe that Tuttle misunderstood something and I think he should apologize.
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For that, I isolate BB trees from original ISI tracks to generate seed objects to be planted. I change textures for diversity.
I have never had to change any transparency or alpha value so I am not sure about the result of doing so.
I do know that the way they rotate to face the spectator when reexporting the GMT with 3dsimed is not exactly the expected one. However the result is sufficiently good for most cases. I am not sure if Dave Noonan is aware of this. I will check at his forum.
My point is that providing information on how to solve issues about BB objects with 3dsimed has nothing to do with ripping. Furthermore, many authorised conversions are done using 3dsimed. Like myself many people don't know how to use 3dmax but can easily use 3dsimed to do the job. Also, in many cases the authorisation to further work on a track is granted in the release notes of the track. That's the case of rF2 nords or the jarama track I converted long time ago. However, I have never seen a link to the original source in those cases.
It should be also noted that for some modders limited by BTB. 3dsimed becomes, at certain stage of a project, the "original track source". Modifying things in the original BTB project implies redoing many things and working very carefully to avoid messing things. Supporting this tool is supporting modders. Many abandoned projects can be and are being easily improved using it.
I think this tool deserves a respect and should not be treated as a ripping tool.
By saying all this I think the treatment Marc Collins has received is completely unjustified.
He did things right IMO and was insulted. As he said, he didn't publish anything and asked for permission to fix things using 3dsimed. When being told that it was not technically possible to do what he pretended, lasercutter disagreed and Marc asked for a clarification about it.
What came next was completely out of context. I want to believe that Tuttle misunderstood something and I think he should apologize.
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Tuttle
Technical Art Director - Env Lead
No. I understood perfectly.
Point is easy;
Marc asked people here, in the Croft thread, a way to fix the problem of vertex alpha and repackage.
I replied suggesting the only way to do that is to fix those trees in the original trees scene and repackage because reverse engineering it's messing billboards most of the time and it's a nonsense move as you need an agreement from the author; so why mess with trees, using third party converters - and gonna crazy into Max to "fix" things, if you have an agreement with the Author? Just ask him to fix or ask him that basic scene with just trees. This is a LOOP really. I replied the same, about this same argument, dozen times along years....and we are still here, questioning the same.
What's wrong with you guys to understand this very little easy rule?
As for my reaction with Collins I think it's clear what he was trying to do after my suggestion; make someone (me) appear as a fool because I told him he need the original scene to fix vertex alpha, while Dave said you don't. Seriously, it's this forum level so low?
Basically now you are asking to post here, in the Croft thread, a HOW TO to take control over those trees, in the form of 3DsMax mesh to fit the Collins request.
What I'm saying here is, this is not the proper place (Croft thread, Feels 3 track, ISI forum) to do something like that. I already posted the easy concept GMTs are OUTPUT game files, not input files for a 3D editor. They are NOT intended to be open mesh and everything you want to do in this direction (legal or not) has to be discussed properly, respecting rules. (just ask Dave via PM)
Said that, if you have something against my message report it. I can manage.
Point is easy;
Marc asked people here, in the Croft thread, a way to fix the problem of vertex alpha and repackage.
I replied suggesting the only way to do that is to fix those trees in the original trees scene and repackage because reverse engineering it's messing billboards most of the time and it's a nonsense move as you need an agreement from the author; so why mess with trees, using third party converters - and gonna crazy into Max to "fix" things, if you have an agreement with the Author? Just ask him to fix or ask him that basic scene with just trees. This is a LOOP really. I replied the same, about this same argument, dozen times along years....and we are still here, questioning the same.
What's wrong with you guys to understand this very little easy rule?
As for my reaction with Collins I think it's clear what he was trying to do after my suggestion; make someone (me) appear as a fool because I told him he need the original scene to fix vertex alpha, while Dave said you don't. Seriously, it's this forum level so low?
Basically now you are asking to post here, in the Croft thread, a HOW TO to take control over those trees, in the form of 3DsMax mesh to fit the Collins request.
What I'm saying here is, this is not the proper place (Croft thread, Feels 3 track, ISI forum) to do something like that. I already posted the easy concept GMTs are OUTPUT game files, not input files for a 3D editor. They are NOT intended to be open mesh and everything you want to do in this direction (legal or not) has to be discussed properly, respecting rules. (just ask Dave via PM)
Said that, if you have something against my message report it. I can manage.
mkilner
Registered
...i have followed this thread quietly and as i always enjoyed this track i am a bit bemused by the politics getting intertwined to a simple fix that someone honestly wants to address, i hope it can be resolved as it would be great to see it fixed for the community, btw Was this track a conversion from Toca Race Driver?
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Marc Collins
Registered
Tuttle, I was absolutely not replying to make you look foolish. Just the opposite, in fact. My assumption was that you were correct, but I also know lasercutter is very experienced, so I can't also assume that he is automatically wrong when he disagrees with you.
I am so ignorant of graphics modding techniques that I also did not think about the legality/pirating issue angle of all of this. I thought it was simple case of Croft and feels3's other tracks being so old that rF2 core had moved on and it was just a simple update to make them compatible with the newer builds. Sort of like old tracks that do not have HDR properly implemented.
I have already encountered two situations where modders lost (usually to computer or backup failure) their original Max files. So let's also remember that there are "legitimate" situations where some alternate method could be of value.
But ultimately I have to agree with mkilner. The main point is what a waste of three of the best tracks ever created for rF2. I know feels3 well enough to know that he must cringe at the thought of half an hours work being all that is separating his artistry from being better enjoyed. If he does not reply or does not agree to update or let someone else update, it must be because he is beyond ridiculously busy, or, his current employment situation forbids him from doing so.
I am so ignorant of graphics modding techniques that I also did not think about the legality/pirating issue angle of all of this. I thought it was simple case of Croft and feels3's other tracks being so old that rF2 core had moved on and it was just a simple update to make them compatible with the newer builds. Sort of like old tracks that do not have HDR properly implemented.
I have already encountered two situations where modders lost (usually to computer or backup failure) their original Max files. So let's also remember that there are "legitimate" situations where some alternate method could be of value.
But ultimately I have to agree with mkilner. The main point is what a waste of three of the best tracks ever created for rF2. I know feels3 well enough to know that he must cringe at the thought of half an hours work being all that is separating his artistry from being better enjoyed. If he does not reply or does not agree to update or let someone else update, it must be because he is beyond ridiculously busy, or, his current employment situation forbids him from doing so.
mkilner
Registered
a simple fix for such a classic track!...i would be more than happy to lend a hand if anyone can get the max files, i do have some experience in track modeling from my GTL days at nogrip, lets not go to war fellows!..we are here for the love of race sims! [emoji106]
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lasercutter
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OK, time to join in and hopefully stop a few pointless arguments, sorry if I caused any of them.
My post was intended to show that all was not lost if the max files were unobtainable, I could easily see the scenario where feels3 would agree to the fix being done but would not want to release the max files to anyone else.
Having worked with simed for many years I thought fixing the trees was something that could possibly be done, with the max files the fix takes a few minutes, however using simed and then max takes a whole lot longer and may not work every time, Tuttle was 100% correct in saying that reverse engineering is problematic and certainly not ideal.
It would probably take feels3 less time to fix the 3 tracks in question than it would for him to read the contents of this thread, if he chooses not to do so and does not give permission to anyone else then as far as I am concerned that's the end of the matter and I will most definitely not release any of the fixed gmt's.
As his last post on these forums were nearly a year ago I think it's safe to say that rF2 isn't his highest priority any more and given his current employment situation it's understandable why.
If anyone does contact him and if he posts in this thread with permission then I'm sure the fix will be sorted very quickly.
My post was intended to show that all was not lost if the max files were unobtainable, I could easily see the scenario where feels3 would agree to the fix being done but would not want to release the max files to anyone else.
Having worked with simed for many years I thought fixing the trees was something that could possibly be done, with the max files the fix takes a few minutes, however using simed and then max takes a whole lot longer and may not work every time, Tuttle was 100% correct in saying that reverse engineering is problematic and certainly not ideal.
It would probably take feels3 less time to fix the 3 tracks in question than it would for him to read the contents of this thread, if he chooses not to do so and does not give permission to anyone else then as far as I am concerned that's the end of the matter and I will most definitely not release any of the fixed gmt's.
As his last post on these forums were nearly a year ago I think it's safe to say that rF2 isn't his highest priority any more and given his current employment situation it's understandable why.
If anyone does contact him and if he posts in this thread with permission then I'm sure the fix will be sorted very quickly.
Hazi
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hexagramme
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Guimengo
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Marc Collins
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Thanks! Thanks for...being you. Happy holidays, too.
Gringosan
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Saabjock
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Thanks a lot.