Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by GTClub_wajdi, Dec 29, 2020.
Go do iRacing u pleb let us break our game the way we want to ))))))))))
I'm not arguing that there aren't drivers that will turn down ffb or degrees of rotation. I'm arguing that it isnt the rule and high level of competitiveness can be achieved without. I know atleast one example of a driver who becomes slower when ffb is turned down, me
I would also argue that having a super sensitive steering wheel will not increase precision, every engineer should be able to see that.
More realistic physics is not the same as easier physics, so no way of knowing if the gaps would reduce or not. This is just another assumption which is made to use physics as an excuse. The motivation behind wanting more realistic physics should be the quest for the most realistic driving experience, not trying to explain the difference between slow and fast drivers. But it turns out to be the main motivation every single time as its one of the first things people will mention, omg they are faster because of bad physics.
I'm perfectly aware what is required to be somewhat fast, and I'm not arguing that rF2 physics are perfect and if the driving technique seen in the videos is either easy or difficult to achieve. I'm arguing that the accusations are going wayyy too far in my opinion, without a single piece of evidence. After years and years of playing rF2 I'm still not the nr. 1 in rf2, and you know why? Other people are faster and have also been doing this for years and years.
If the assist can create the required driving input, why wouldnt a driver be able to do the same? The physics behind it dont change because of the assisted input. In my opinion this just shows that this so called credibility of the physics in rF2 is not the main concern, otherwise calling people cheaters wouldnt even have come up in this discussion in the first place.
I wasn't accusing at all at the beginning, I was just asking why the possible activation (well, as far as I'm concerned it's so obvious that I don't ask myself the question anymore, at all) of the aids in the game could make it possible to be faster because I thought there were constraints on the car's performance. At no time was my goal to accuse anyone of cheating, I just wanted to clarify the fact that by activating these aids, the videos we saw became "normal", the physics of the game was no longer in question.
From the beginning my concern has been to validate or not the physics of the game because when I drive, I don't see anything hallucinating or completely incoherent, there are some rather borderline points but nothing really crazy...except this steering wheel technique which led to these endless discussions.
It's then that someone came to explain to me that these aids were not available in e-sport competition, I didn't know anything about it (and I didn't care about it at all...), so I came to the conclusion that if it's forbidden but you can still see this kind of technique without seeing the steering wheel in the game, then something seems more than suspicious to me...
I do not participate in e-sport and I know that these drivers are faster than me, my goal is not to detect a possible cheat, my goal is just to check the accusations of faulty physics.
What happens in e-sport does not interest me at all, whether it is possible to cheat or not leaves me completely indifferent, I just want to know how a driver can use this technique with such a casualness without it penalizes his performance in the least.
That's all I want to know.
PS: the help we're talking about is going to change the steering wheel rotation angle dynamically in the game to avoid undue stress on the front wheels, when we see the video of the real driver turning his steering wheel abruptly to the stop but in the game the car follows the track perfectly, sorry but something is wrong. Of course you can do "the right way" naturally but that's not what happens, the trajectory of the car and its reactions do not correspond to what we see the driver doing, that's the problem.
Again, the assist does not change the physics, it changes the steering input. If an assist can produce this kind of input allowing this kind of driving, so can a capable driver.
@Kevin van Dooren Yes I think the same, at some point steering will become too sensitive. What will work best depend a lot on car physics, as well as individuals. Very quick and light steering could help in terms of precision when big and quick input will have to be made, but less helpful when very small precise input would need to be made.
It is super important role of physics, because it creates the requirement for a driver of how quick and precise the control has to be. In my theory higher perfromance, more planted cars also drop away faster, inevitably requiring better precision, quicker precision at the same time.
I am also almost certain that increasingly demanding physics would cause wider pace spread of different level racers. I am fairly certain that statistically such dispersion would increase. However I don't know what exact dispersion should be realistic, there also probably no way to find out it, unless someone does an experiment and gets 1000 random simracers to attempt to drive real race car on the limit Ironically what I mean here (assuming that physics of certain cars should be more planted and less permissive at sliding) is that you guys would probably have even bigger edge between you and those slower guys, who might be assuming you exploiting stuff. That is pretty funny, I honestly think that this would happen lol
When ACC was in its very first EA release the car handling was very close to truth (in my opinion), the dispersion of laptimes was high, and it took rather lots of practive and effort to go as high as I did (iiric, I came to be 2s off pace from quickest guy). That ACC release had car rather planted under the limit, but rather quickly getting upset at over the limits - people complained. Next EA build of ACC was a ton esier to handle the car over the limit. It immediately showed in stats, most people quickly sqeezed in top 3-2seconds iiric, and I without much effort came close to being just 1s off from fastest. The dispersion of paces simply just shrunk down, people stopped complaining, physics was "fixed", people become more seemingly more equal, but really they didn't... and thats how communism works. I think it is important to fairly judge how capable you, top guys, really are.
....did you understand what this discussion is actually about ?
I'm fully aware what it should have been about, physics. Hence why I dont understand why you are dragging an assist into this discussion and start questioning if a driver can actually reproduce this behaviour without using assists. They simply can, the question should be why this driving technique/steering input could be the fastest.
I get your point, but it shouldnt really be about how capable drivers are, rather about if the fastest driving technique is realistic or not. Fast drivers will find the fastest driving technique, whether it's realistic or not.
Yes. We all just want it to happen to be realistic.
Have to say, interesting developments over night .
Yzangard definetly is showing his true motivation, proving the physics aren't wrong... That's a bad premise to start with, start with, let's find out... But whatever, me myself also have been on the rope, inclined to one or the other side, but at least I remain mostly centered until some concrete evidence shows what is really happening.
@Kevin van Dooren that is the point of this physics discussion. to eliminate the current unrealistic technique and setup and make it more realistic.
This is exactly my point : without this steering help, you CAN'T be that fast using this steering technique, it just don't work.
Seriously, nobody is even willing to test it ?
That's not right, that's not what's going on. The discussion was about the realism of the game, well, its physics. In order to argue we were presented with driving techniques that shouldn't work, such as this incomprehensible steering wheel technique.
So we tried to reproduce it...again...and again...and again...and each time, not only we weren't going any faster, but we were destroying our tires or our lines, so it was an "exploit". If we can use a trick to go faster then there is a problem because the game becomes "unfair" for those who want to play by the rules.
This steering technique becomes natural and very effective with the help activated. This is my point, because it implies that the trick no longer comes from a weakness in the physics of the game but from something else.
I'm not trying to prove that the physics is perfect or even realistic, I'm trying to explain that what we see on the videos doesn't come from a weakness in the physics engine.
@Slip_Angel Eliminating issues, fixing physics etc. won't be achieved by expressing opinions of what is too much and what isnt, by becoming angry at eachother or by showing a totally skewed comparison on youtube. It took about 35 pages before the term slip angle and actual motec data came into play. There is quite some real onboard footage available on youtube and I have yet to see a side by side comparison with ingame footage, to show differences in speed for high and low speed corners or steering wheel rotation, which would make a decent argument for physics issues.
@Yzangard They are that fast without assist. Drivers reproduce these laptimes and driving techniques in online sessions, where assists are not possible. The physics are NOT changed by using assists, just the steering input itself is assisted. That you are only able to achieve this driving technique with assists on, only implies that you as a driver arent able to reproduce this driving technique without using assists, not that the physics engine does not allow it.
I don't know how to say it: I don't care about their lap times, that's not my problem. They're fast yes, me too, but that's not what I'm talking about!
What I'm talking about is this technique of turning the steering wheel like a brute without any consequences, everywhere on the internet we see rFactor 2 as a simulation with bad physics because of this kind of things, if it turns out that in fact it's the use of an in-game help that gives this impression, don't you think we should highlight it, or at least test it and talk about it ?
The in-game help "corrects" the angle of the steering wheel so that the wheels are not too much turned and therefore not to lose the grip, what we see on the video is the real driver turning his steering wheel fully but yet the car follows perfectly the trajectory without even wobbling a little ... so what we see the driver doing does not match what the steering wheel does in the game, if you want to have the heart of it clear activates the option and test this technique, you will see it's obvious.
I KNOW that you can drive correctly without this help, that's what I've been doing for years, so I'm vaguely aware of it, but that's not the problem. The problem is being able to take those turns with this kind of technique.
Again: it's not their ability to drive fast that's a problem, it has nothing to do with what I'm talking about!
60% on my T300 is low FFB to me, what the hell are you talking about? The strenght will also be relative to each one. Then I am driving with clipping? Don't jump to conclusions... Right? Follow your advice then, no? You really stepped out of the line here. I know what I am doing with my FFB and you come and compare 60%FFb on a DD to a t300? Jesus christ.
I also suspect that it's possible some of the hotlaps were achieved with some assists, at least ABS, as braking so late was my main problem with the McLaren, although it might just be very good practice by this guys, they are alien after all, they put in the time to perfect driving the cara first, knowing well the limits and I agree with some comments that even if steering wheel makes it easier for me to do it, it doesn't mean that it was achieved that way. My tests of throwing the car around were done with default setup, steering lock matching the car driven and no assists at all, only low FFB (low FFB for me, lmao).
Well, you said it yourself that you were trying to show the physics are realistic, but I know what you mean, I was a bit harsh, I admit. At least we are agreeing that those videos aren't that normal looking after all, as some have been suggesting (you too). I've already positioned myself that I drive the game normally as I don't want to brake any records, I am not into sim racing for that. I like to be fast, but what I really enjoy is the experience.
Driving without cockpit wheel isn't strange at all. i usually do it with all gt cars and something like that except formula cars. Steering Help is the dumbest aid people can use to go faster, because in high tier championship is not allowed. Physics in many cars are simply strange from external perspective (also for faster guy on this game,i can confirm it) when people starts to do Hotlap Session, because sliding is faster than driving "normally". I'm not a fan of this(but i learnt to do the same,and it worked) and i think a lot of guys feel the same thing.
Using SimHub to change in-game parameters without touching the wheel is cheating, not hide in-game wheel ahah.
The clipping of the ffb signal coming from the game has no relation w.r.t. what wheel you have. 100% car specific and 5% minimum torque will be clipping a lot. Show me a motec graph of a lap with those ffb settings without any insane clipping and I'll happily appologize, I have no issues with being proven wrong.
They are not using assists, the assist is not giving this impression, it is not a fact.
We are talking about it, and you just won't accept my answer that they are not using assists.
I already said I have some clipping at the top cornering forces, but it's just so slightly and only at some cars that I prefer some stronger forces when I am at slow speed, so don't pretend I don't know what I am doing, as I can certainly feel what is happening, I don't need the graphs at all to have a good enough impression of where it is maxing out. I know my wheel ok? There is no insane clipping.
I am not seeing you as an unresonable difficult guy, but I think that it was you that jumped to conclusions about me too soon.. No need for apologies, just so you know I have some clue of what I am doing
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