“ are rfactor2 physics broken” video

Nieubermesch said:
Yes, that has already been explored. There's merit to that, but not sure if it can be explained by that right away.


Here is the video of me trying to do... something with the McLaren Senna simillar to "exploitative driving". Came to the conclusion that I can only drift and throw the car into corners with consistency at higher speeds when FFB is 60% on a T300. Very hard to respond quick enough and precisely enough with FFB hitting clipping (very little, but some clipping at the top is fine for me).
All in all I started with a hack setup you can see in the video. Next is putting FFB at 60% feeling much more easier to throw the cars around stupidly. Then I hit default setup and I can still kind of do it, but it's more difficult.

Conclusions? Well, devs look into this... If it's more than FFB exploit then fix it when possible. Make it harder to do it, damage model,whatever. I still think the tires should be more edgier and FFB only explains part of it, so, it's not like I've "lost" (take the quotation marks serious).

FFB drop is at minute 5. You can see after that and setup being the same and then going to default, I can drift/powerslide the car much more easily. Default setup is at 6:45.
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This is a nice example of jumping to conclusions.
It's always best to try to understand what you are experiencing, and not just immediately call it an exploit because you have difficulties understanding what's going on. 60% ingame ffb is in no way low ffb. Try holding onto a car with a 25+nm DD and 60% ingame ffb, and I'll dare you to call it low ffb xD. There are crazy fast people who do drive with high nm settings on their DD, just because you found one example on the interwebz of "low ffb" on a low nm wheel, doesnt make it true for all people who are faster than you.

What kinda boggles me is that people are trying to determine how realistic rf2 is, but do drive with 5% minimum torque and 100% ffb ingame without noticing the amount of clipping that should be smacking them in the face.
 
Kevin van Dooren said:
This is a nice example of jumping to conclusions.
It's always best to try to understand what you are experiencing, and not just immediately call it an exploit because you have difficulties understanding what's going on. 60% ingame ffb is in no way low ffb. Try holding onto a car with a 25+nm DD and 60% ingame ffb, and I'll dare you to call it low ffb xD. There are crazy fast people who do drive with high nm settings on their DD, just because you found one example on the interwebz of "low ffb" on a low nm wheel, doesnt make it true for all people who are faster than you.

What kinda boggles me is that people are trying to determine how realistic rf2 is, but do drive with 5% minimum torque and 100% ffb ingame without noticing the amount of clipping that should be smacking them in the face.
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not only that but they post videos of "crazy steering inputs" from ppl that use in-game steering help but hide in-game wheel so we can't even see it.

Read my previous post, I did a 3:18 lap on Le Mans with McLaren Senna and default setup just by using 2 in-game helps and using the FAMOUS "steering input exploit" they keep dealing with...

Seriously, this is not even funny now, it is just ridiculous !
 
Yzangard said:
LOL, just did the test with :

- low steering help
- low anti-lock

And guess what ? I can do EXACTLY what he does, I can of course overturn like crazy, in game the wheel just turns up to almost ideal slip angle and everything is smooth...

SERIOUSLY we are dealing with this since the begining ?

Don't believe me ? JUST TRY IT !

Now the question is : how the hell can we be faster with HELPS that easily ? Why is it only allowed in competition ?

until proven otherwise, it is just some random driver using in game helps to be faster since the game doesn't punish their use enough.
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Steering help is not allowed in competitions.

Don't believe me ? JUST TRY IT IN A COMPETION !

Get your facts straight before accusing people of using assists, some might actually believe your accusations.
 
Kevin van Dooren said:
Steering help is not allowed in competitions.

Don't believe me ? JUST TRY IT IN A COMPETION !

Get your facts straight before accusing people of using assists, some might actually believe your accusations.
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which one ? I'm sorry but which competition are you dealing with ?

The videos posted here from an esport driver is clearly using it, it is impossible to handle the car the way he does without them, not with this steering input or this braking inputs.

Do you have a video footage of someone doing this with in-game wheel so we can check what actually is the in-game steering input ?

If not allowed, isn't there a way to bypass it ? No possible hack you think ?

Just be serious for a second please, hacking is almost a core component of e-sport nowadays, name a single game without this kind of behavior...even iRacing had its flaws with hacks.
 
Those are some stiff accusations without any kind of proof.
Quite sure the driver in your example drives at VEC, which surely does not allow any assists.
Just because you can't achieve this driving without assists, doesnt mean everybody is using them.

Ingame wheels are turned of because they are offputting, we already have a real wheel in front of us so why show another one ingame?

This is one of the main reasons physics discussions like this are not taken seriously by a lot of people. They und up in accusations against faster drivers, constant jumping to conclusion, refusing to stray from their initial opinion and result in a discussion who's opinion is best. Stuff like this mask the actual proper physics discussion that could otherwise exist, as no sim is perfect and could always be improved.
 
Yzangard said:
which one ? I'm sorry but which competition are you dealing with ?

The videos posted here from an esport driver is clearly using it, it is impossible to handle the car the way he does without them, not with this steering input or this braking inputs.

Do you have a video footage of someone doing this with in-game wheel so we can check what actually is the in-game steering input ?

If not allowed, isn't there a way to bypass it ? No possible hack you think ?

Just be serious for a second please, hacking is almost a core component of e-sport nowadays, name a single game without this kind of behavior...even iRacing had its flaws with hacks.
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Mate at this rate i had to pull out my dusty account for this. There is one thing taking issue about rF2s physics and pointing out its flaws, its another when you go and start slinging accusations of cheating and hacking out at people just because you (someone who as far as i can tell has never done any high level comp in rF2) cant match his pace. Stay on the topic of the thread man. It’s ridiculous at this point
 
Kevin van Dooren said:
Those are some stiff accusations without any kind of proof.
Quite sure the driver in your example drives at VEC, which surely does not allow any assists.
Just because you can't achieve this driving without assists, doesnt mean everybody is using them.

Ingame wheels are turned of because they are offputting, we already have a real wheel in front of us so why show another one ingame?

This is one of the main reasons physics discussions like this are not taken seriously by a lot of people. They und up in accusations against faster drivers, constant jumping to conclusion, refusing to stray from their initial opinion and result in a discussion who's opinion is best. Stuff like this mask the actual proper physics discussion that could otherwise exist, as no sim is perfect and could always be improved.
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Stiff accusation ?

Did you test it ? His steering technique is TERRIBLE but still manage to do a great lap with perfect cornering ? THIS is why this discussion about broken physics started in the first place, if all of this was about CHEATING, I think we have a right to know !

I did the test and ALL OF A SUDDEN I was able to use this same "technique" without any flaw, no problem at all...isn't it "surprising" ?

Now if they can enable it without the penalty, isn't it a concern we should worry about ?

I still need a video footage with webcam showing driver input and in-game wheel to compare angles...until then, I'm convinced of what I'm saying and I clearly don't need others to follow me on this. I tested for days, weeks even...I drive in rF2 for years and NEVER was I able to do something like they do without issues...you are better than me ? Surely but I'm no newbie by any mean, I have 2 iRacing accounts, both above 4K iRating (not racing that much since I don't like iRacing physics), I am a simracer for years and I was never able to do this kind of thing without serious steering issues...but as soon as I enable this help, I can do it without any problem...

Lol, ok, top convinced, I'm just bad at driving...
 
Timotej Andonovski said:
The moment you find an excuse for your driving, things are beyond repair. @Kevin van Dooren ignore them and the whole thread, talking to a brick wall will yield to better reasoning...
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lol, yeah of course.

Either that or we spotted a cheat you obviously don't want to be public ?

You might be right that being said, I can't prove what I am saying so I let everybody test it and I am waiting for your video proving me wrong.
 
Yzangard said:
lol, yeah of course.

Either that or we spotted a cheat you obviously don't want to be public ?

You might be right that being said, I can't prove what I am saying so I let everybody test it and I am waiting for your video proving me wrong.
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If I found a cheat, me or my team won't finish 2nd or 3rd every race. We'd WIN! Do you see how deluded you are right now?
 
Yzangard said:
Stiff accusation ?

Did you test it ? His steering technique is TERRIBLE but still manage to do a great lap with perfect cornering ? THIS is why this discussion about broken physics started in the first place, if all of this was about CHEATING, I think we have a right to know !

I did the test and ALL OF A SUDDEN I was able to use this same "technique" without any flaw, no problem at all...isn't it "surprising" ?

Now if they can enable it without the penalty, isn't it a concern we should worry about ?

I still need a video footage with webcam showing driver input and in-game wheel to compare angles...until then, I'm convinced of what I'm saying and I clearly don't need others to follow me on this. I tested for days, weeks even...I drive in rF2 for years and NEVER was I able to do something like they do without issues...you are better than me ? Surely but I'm no newbie by any mean, I have 2 iRacing accounts, both above 4K iRating (not racing that much since I don't like iRacing physics), I am a simracer for years and I was never able to do this kind of thing without serious steering issues...but as soon as I enable this help, I can do it without any problem...

Lol, ok, top convinced, I'm just bad at driving...
Click to expand...
you are not only bad, you're deluded and immediately seek professional help
 
Timotej Andonovski said:
If I found a cheat, me or my team won't finish 2nd or 3rd every race. We'd WIN! Do you see how deluded you are right now?
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he he, in the worst case scenario for me I am just thinking someone is using in-game help while he doesn't...your worst case scenario is you cheated and I think consequences will be MUCH heavier.

Up to you.

Now I'm done replying, I have no interest here. I just encourage others to test by themselves, result was so obvious when i did it that I think they'll come to the same conclusion.
 
@Timotej Andonovski I should have known better I guess :rolleyes:, but welcome to the topic, good luck escaping :D

@Yzangard I have no intention of testing an assist, as I have no single reason to believe it is being used in high level competitions. I'm perfectly aware why there are faster drivers than me, they are simply better, and I accept that. With ofcourse a bit of competative frustration and motivation to do better ;)

In the end we are not making the accusations. We have no reason to waste our time proving someone wrong every time they are unable to replicate certain laptimes or driving techniques.

At this point you've only proven that you are faster with assists, not that faster drivers are using them. What you call the worst case scenario for you is actually slandering someone, with your own driving inabilities as an argument, while showing absolutely no remorse of doing so. Your inability is no proof against someones ability being truthfull and achieved without an unfair advantage.
 
Kevin van Dooren said:
This is a nice example of jumping to conclusions.
It's always best to try to understand what you are experiencing, and not just immediately call it an exploit because you have difficulties understanding what's going on. 60% ingame ffb is in no way low ffb. Try holding onto a car with a 25+nm DD and 60% ingame ffb, and I'll dare you to call it low ffb xD. There are crazy fast people who do drive with high nm settings on their DD, just because you found one example on the interwebz of "low ffb" on a low nm wheel, doesnt make it true for all people who are faster than you.

What kinda boggles me is that people are trying to determine how realistic rf2 is, but do drive with 5% minimum torque and 100% ffb ingame without noticing the amount of clipping that should be smacking them in the face.
Click to expand...

I have had an opportunity to have DD wheel at my home for a week, with whole rig and computer... Unfortunately only AC was available. The importance of FFB strength is undeniable. None of us could handle Mercedes C9 at all at first, later when I was left alone I have turned down strenght to around 90% and turned on gyroscopic effect which additionaly made FFB less brutal at initiating torque as soon the car would oversteer. Drivability changed dramatically, I had pretty good handling of cars such as F40 s3, Mercedes C9 and Lotus 49, of which C9 is especially brutal (and awesome).

I suppose thats inevitable that to be very fast some will turn down FFB very very low, while at the same time there is possibility to reduce steering degrees. Having faster steering + lighter steering that helps to respond even faster and more precisely - win win !

Surely these things will influence difficulty and ability to do fast and precise inputs. But the physics question remains. Doesn't matter how much perfectly it will be possible to point the front wheels, the simulated physics still has a final say of what is possible for the tires, how much they can hold on to before they just goes.

If these things could benefit driving so much, RL racing cars would also have very small steering wheel rotations, low steering ratios and would use strong powersteering. But now I think, doesn't they actually do all that already in modern racing cars ? So real life footage still should be very fair comparison to how the car/tires should work.

Finally, the thing in question is and should remain to be what the cars and tires are capable to do in the first place, and not the ego of fast guys, you guys will be just the same fastest whatever the physics is going to be, the only difference will be gaps between different ability levels - easier physics = smaller gaps, more difficult physics = bigger gaps.
 
Kevin van Dooren said:
@Timotej Andonovski I should have known better I guess :rolleyes:, but welcome to the topic, good luck escaping :D

@Yzangard I have no intention of testing an assist, as I have no single reason to believe it is being used in high level competitions. I'm perfectly aware why there are faster drivers than me, they are simply better, and I accept that. With ofcourse a bit of competative frustration and motivation to do better ;)

In the end we are not making the accusations. We have no reason to waste our time proving someone wrong every time they are unable to replicate certain laptimes or driving techniques.

At this point you've only proven that you are faster with assists, not that faster drivers are using them. What you call the worst case scenario for you is actually slandering someone, with your own driving inabilities as an argument, while showing absolutely no remorse of doing so. Your inability is no proof against someones ability being truthfull and achieved without an unfair advantage.
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You have to remember what this discussion started if you don't mind: a rumor of a possible exploit in the game with accusations of a failing physics engine.

So for several days, we are several to discuss all this, going to the point of looking for videos of real cars with drivers also doing crazy things, we went as far as testing with telemetry because what we saw seemed just impossible. After days and days of testing, I didn't manage to do the same thing, it's not a question of time but of technique. I don't really care about lap times, that's not the question, the question was really how you could turn the steering wheel with such brutality, to the extreme and yet follow the track perfectly...you can try, you'll see that not only is it far from being easy to do, if you manage to do it, but also the consequences should be disastrous (destroyed tires, incredible vibrations in the steering wheel, etc...not to mention the time lost because a tire that slips must make you lose time).

So this discussion starts from this premise and I and others didn't understand because in our experience of the game, this technique just doesn't work.

So here comes this video of an "alien" on Le Mans with the McLaren Senna which uses this technique but still does a nearly perfect lap...just the braking is from another world but at the limit ok, here it's "possible" (ultra hot but possible).... on the other hand, the steering wheel technique, no, sorry but no, it doesn't work, it doesn't matter the setup (or there's a feat somewhere I don't know, why not ?) while by activating the help in the game, everything becomes clear, I can do exactly the same thing without any difficulty, I get exactly the same result as this "alien".

I'm not saying that he shouldn't be faster than me, he probably is, but that's not the point, the point is to know how you can use such a bad technique without penalizing him in the least, worse it's even faster?

I remind you that what is at stake is the credibility of the physics in rFactor 2, not my self-esteem as a driver that no one cares about (not even me actually).

I think it's important enough for everyone who wants to have an opinion to at least do the test.
 
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In the real world driver have no endless tires, they have to be able to avoid a deer that jump into the road, and can't be over tired and over stressed, so they can't have a wheel so "pointy". IT is obvious that when you go near the 100% performance, there is some distance between R/L and simulation, because too many factors are not simulated.In R/L there is some sort of "randomity" that make repeating certain feats again and again is very very difficult.
Now, in simulation, we probably have not the means to add "noise" but in the real world there is noise everywhere. This could help reduce repeatability, and force people to increase a bit the margin.
 
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