I can't find some of the info... We had a decent discussion on this back in 2012 but I must have deleted the emails. In any case, I found the graph that explained where the forces (or lack) comes from in relation to the aligning torque versus slip angle. I'm sure it'll mean more to you than it does to me.
My thoughts exactly! I really want to drive this car, but it just feels too weird compared to just about every other car in the sim.
The F2 used some settings in particular that our physics engineer balked at. He setup the car in a way that he thought it was supposed to be, and was told his setup was illegal, and that it didn't feel right, he changed it, then we were told it was legal and felt right. caster was the main setting I believe, and if changed, I think it changes how the FFB feels. So... We were specifically told about this feeling in testing.
Well I guess this car will just remain a mystery to me then. I suppose all the evidence lead towards that this car is supposed to feel "weird". Can't we get a spec for this car with the illegal setup that feels "right"? It was very strange; a couple of months ago, I decided that enough was enough. I so badly wanted to race the F2, despite the weirdness, and set up a race at Sebring, on the big layout. After racing for about an hour, it started to feel better... Much better. I don't know if I just got used to it, or if it had to do with tyre temps or a really rubbered in track... But it felt great for a while. When picking up the car again earlier this month, I was just horrified at how it feels. All feeling goes away when braking and apexing, wheel is pulled towards apex, horrible understeer in medium speed corners and snap oversteer out of slow corners (coming from 2nd to 3rd gear I have to lift to avoid that). All in all... This car is perplexing. And i want to race it. Badly.
Very interesting conversation, thank you Tim for the insight. Like many, I also have a bit of a love/hate relation with this car in particular and unfortunately it stems from the FFB. In preparation for our first league event in these this weekend I spent my first serious amount of testing time behind the wheel last night starting to work on a setup. I noticed the same effect [quoted above] and did notice in the [default] setup that front toe-in actually looks to be set as positive? [toe-OUT]. Didn't have time to play with it but if that's true it could potentially explain the apex-pulling effect. I'll certainly be poking around with that tonight, I thought it was just me! But the main reason that brought me to this thread was to look for answers to the FFB question. I've got to agree with many others in the thread that the FFB feels very 'off'. I think at times it can be best described as "60's Buick" on center, but then touch the rumbled curbs and you realize it's all there. I'm no professional driver [far from it] but I find it very difficult to believe that the steering in these cars would feel like this. I've had the chance to run in an open wheeler before, and although not a Williams chassis the designs are not so dissimilar as to think the feeling would be completely different. Which begs the question: can one alter [or even get to] the FFB settings for a particular chassis without creating online mismatching? I can think of at least one or two other rF2 cars that if I could effectively 'copy' over the FFB characteristics, I would be in heaven with this Williams! Honestly, we are talking about sim racing here so the argument that altering the FFB of a particular car may provide an on track advantage doesn't hold any water - the fact that FFB isn't a requirement at all is testimony to that. Again, not wanting to be bashing here and I'm certainly not in any position to be contradicting the expert testers, but unless this Williams came with power steering I think something's amiss.
I find that with this car it's matters more how you apply throttle than how much throttle you apply. The more you accelerate, the more rear end will bite and you will be able to accelerate even more. Feels great when you get it right., but takes some practice. Palm Beach is an excellent test playground for this car, with it's long 2nd 3rd gear turns. FFB comes nearly direclty from physics, so you would have to alter suspension geometry in order to produce different FFB. It's being processed (filtering etc.), but nothing that would change characteristics.
Why is that? Do you know how real F2 steering feels like? If you don't then why change it? You could be moving away from realism
I'm thrilled that this thread is flaring up a bit again. I thought I was crazy, when I abandoned the car because of the weird ffb. But it's not just me then. As I suggested in another thread just now, why not "just" mod the F2's force feedback? Well, I guess the answer is no according to K Szczech's reply. I wouldn't even begin to suggest that I know the first thing about how these things work, so I guess it's not that simple. I guess I just have to get on with it. Take this car for what it is, adapt my driving style when racing this car, and just learn to enjoy it.
I think it's quite odd to suggest the hardware would make anything make sense to you as you need it to. The hardware is being fed the same things, and better hardware will only do a better job of giving you the feeling you do not like. Suggesting that better hardware would have some completely different reaction is... Ludicrous, to put it best. That's simply not realistic to suggest.
It would be simple and easy to fake it. It would be simple to give the car an illegal unrealistic setup. It would be simple to have the FFB feel the way YOU think it should feel. But then it isn't the 2012 F2 car we're simulating, is it? The very fact that we're not doing the easy thing, should really have said something by now.
That is called oscillation and is a mechanical symptom of the wheel when there is not enough damping to stop it happening. Add damping. That's NOTHING to do with the things people are saying the F2 FFB does differently to other cars when driving, is it? Perhaps you're confused about the issues everybody else is talking about in relation to your complaints in this post, which are fairly standard FFB adjustments across any simulation without preset damping, and any hardware. In fact, if you haven't adjusted settings too much in control panel and use the built-in presets for rF2 available when you click detect, I doubt any wheel would oscillate. Other wheels can feel different, but they all will take in the same information and move in the same direction with the same setting. That is a fact. The slight differences between hardware you're mentioning has absolutely nothing to do with the subject matter.
I totally respect the way you are doing it, no doubt about that. I'm beginning to suspect that my own FFB settings are messed up somehow, and that's what makes the car more weird than it is..? Wow this is confusing. But I'm glad people are at least talking about it now. It's been F2 silence for quite a while now.
You can tweek the ffb file .ini so to have a saved special file (that you load up each time in your controller options (in sim) For downforce cars, that's what I've done previously Be careful not to go to far though, with trust that isi have modelled the ffb effects correctly. I think (as well as personal preference) that different hardware can to some degree gives different effects, so understanding the basic values in the ffb .ini is a must IMO
Do not remember well how it felt in detail and the last time i've tryed the car was with the G27 but my memory says it was a strange feeling. I would like to know how the car feels with more weight or a high load on the front, for example contact pressure output by downforce or static weight. I don't know the kinematics of this car but it could generally move tire patch inwardly got its vertical suspension movement, at least a standard suspension does by decreasing height, like by downforce or load under weight. Now the vehicle is already on the inside edge of the tire by - camber. I suppose that when the steering is turned in the stand or on the straight, the inner wheel increases the patch while the outer further reduces, but a corner the opposite generates when the contact pressure/load by lateral acceleration ( total forces ) is transferred to the outer wheel/tire, while the inner wheel/tire begins to reduce the patch by increasing height and decreasing load in general. The self-alignment and the strange feeling should be not just a question of caster, for example a front axle with much trailing ( -toe out/-camber ) the wheels tend to increase -toe out, which also adds a load again added to the inside edge. This allone would result in a strange feeling by extrem values. However, i do not like the car, feels like driving with solid rubber tires but anyway it seems logical for me. How far it replicates the real thing, i don't know but if it feels really like this, the real thing should pull out the arms of the driver than.
Very good advice about the ffb file. So what do I do, exactly? Make a copy of my current G27 controller file, rename it to "F2" for example, and copy paste the values of Paul Loatman's post above? Then load the controller file in rFactor when I drive the F2? Sorry, I'm not deeply into how all this works. I've only edited a couple of values in the plr previously. I'm no expert.
In sim save your current controller settings to some like "standard" Then find this file in your userdata, copy it to desktop & make your amendments (a bit of trial & error to get it spot on ) Then rename this amended file something like "down force special" Put that file back in same folder with others Then you can simply load which ffb config you require. (vgood for the f2 ) Goo luck
