What I believe to be wrong with the RF2 tire model / grip levels / lack of control

LoL, Your challenge would prove nothing other than you can be faster on a track and might be better at making setups. I never said I was faster than anyone, I even posted that I am not the fastest out there, but I still prefer to use this sim as a learning tool with real physics rather than something that makes it too easy to drive and thus prevents me from learning what I need to know. Given the current state of what we are discussing, this would also not prove or disprove the sim's ability to handle physics properly, it would only prove our ability to adjust to what is currently available.

So if you ignore those points, then I guess you win, but I sure hope that ISI doesn't accept the win that easily

 

hahahaaha Either you are trying to get a laugh and break a bit of tension in this thread in which I appreciate the comment , or you're 12.

You choose which one applies, if not, then your 12 years old by default

 

I put the FTarget into the top 10* in a number of tracks within 15 laps.....this is because the cars have good grip levels and the wheel/pedal synchronization is so good.

*they have charts that record the best laps, but I uploaded my replays to Racedepartment as the servers that record weren't up.

 

Hehehe, too funny Spinelli

 

How can it be easy to drive if you're so slow?
Even the best rf2 cars are hard to drive compared to GTR Evo's best cars, yet only a handful of people can drive Evo's F3000, but you not only want rf2's higher difficulty, you also want them to leave what some of us deem as slightly botched cars as well.

 

So true, and a lot of iracing weirdo's have the hide to call Gtr evo and co sub par, yet iracings driving model and FFB are quite ordinary for me, I appreciate it's structure is geared towards better and more disciplined drivers, but if a sim doesn't get the physics and FFB right, it's of no value to me.

 

I didn't say I was slow, I only said I was not the fastest, there is a huge difference. And if you wish to compare lap times in the F3000, I can do that. I have raced in the F3000 in the past and done fairly well with it. It can be difficult at times, but it is doable.

 

Muscle cars are made to go straight, GT cars are made to turn, also high level racing slick and street tire are both round and installed on the wheel, that is about same with them, your muscle cars are so far from GT cars that it is pointless to compare.

However, I'm creating muscle cars for rF2 and what I see is quite huge drop of grip level when tires 'turns yellow', reason for that I don't know yet, if it is unfinished tire model or my doing.

What I have found out as a modder, is that there are are ton of other things that affect to this apart from tires, which, imo. should be evaluated and examined before jumping conclusion it's the tires. Also one thing never spoken of is suspension and how in rF it is 100% rigid without anything flexing at all, while Muscle cars have rubber bushings to start with (yes, they can be upgraded and it does make a difference), axle twist is something that does not exists in rF world, driveline is 100% rigid as is engine mountings, what they are not at all in reality and they create a lot of extra time which one can react in reality + add that seat of pants feel that is huge helper to know when you have to countersteer, wheel response does not tell that.

Most of 'that was odd' kind of spins I have had, have been in off camber / camber changing situations.

From drag racing, I have been told by driver how at start you can floor it and keep it down until 1/4-mile mark, that is with 800hp 32" wide drag racing slicks at 'glued' strip.


With tires we currently use temporary bristle spring, that changes tires grip by adjusting stiffness of contact patch area, this is going to be changed in future, there is not much point pointing tires as such stage.

 

Yes, and that's why if we're interested in a racing sim vs a maths sim, it makes perfect sense to create a game that best corresponds to reality with the end user, not just a bunch of data.

 

One of the things that makes activites in real life very adictive and something that game designers often strive for is


"easy to pick up Imposable to master"

I think this is what makes motersport so addictive in reality and what would also translate well to simulators only RF1 and RF2 and allot of simulators are very hard to pick up and once you get a to a certain level you can replicate it quite easily.

I think ISI are adresing this in some ways by having dynamic track and better weather systems but I think games like NKP handle it without these factors in the sheer depth of the tires when trying to lay down that perfect lap.

I think alain drivers might actually prefer games like RF1 as once they hit a certain lap with a given set-up it will be easer for them to replicate that than they could in NKP and in manny ways RF2 ( as RF2 adds more depth to the dynamics than RF1)

And again GSK and GTRevo although in Gmoter2 to me are far easer to pick up but far harder to master than the cars in RF2

 

The point was despite him going mental it took ages before he lost it because the amount of recovery ability you have with steering alone in a real car. He was clearly not driving like Jenson button and more as you would expect a rally driver to go at it.

Apart from the fact that you can in NKP

 

I don't agree....I do accept that the first lap especially, and until race tracks are rubbered in more, that more grip will come, but the rear behaviour of the GTR is wrong IMO, and it doesn't matter what the cause is, I just hope it doesn't stay in that state.
A muscle car in the hands of an amateur, designed to have a degree of comfort, seems to have strong grip levels, but a low weight purpose built race car is slippery and uncommunicative as hell{on the rear}....GTR has great front end and brakes.

I also agree that rf2 feels coarse, especially compared to GSC 2012.

 

So you guys are willing to talk at length about limits, cars on the limit, real life versus rfactor versus netkar pro, what you should be feeling, what you can't feel i.e. you talk with authority.

Well, if you truely know what youre talking about, then you should be able to drive On the limit in rfactor 2 and get to at least 1.5 seconds of an Alien time, on any given track.

Otherwise.........how else could you be argueing your points, if you dont even know what the limit is in the game?

Ive already shown a video of me driving in real life, fighting the car, balancing it on the limit and over it - you guys have given nothing.

Well okay, fine, hardly any of us have done real life driving - so lets see what you can do in the sim?

i mean something as simple as an online race......and you dont even want to have a go. why?
it will prove something, it will prove that you know what youre talking about, because you'd have demonstrated that you can at least find some kind of limits in the sim.

now i Know i can, so if you can keep up with me, then we could maybe take the analysis further and discuss more in depth.

oh, and i SPECIFICALLY said in my post 'fixed setup, whatever you choose' IN BRACKETS.
..............................

 

WELCOME TO THE INTERNET, LOL......our mates have certainty about nearly every damn thing except reality, LOL.

 

I think it would be fun to just have a race with people on the forum in general, I don't care who wins I just like racing and the unexpected emergent game play that happens in the context of a race.

I'd rather lose a race but have lots of fun exciting moves or things happen that make me perform in a way i would not expect than win a race that was a plane and simple race.

Mind you If there was money in it then id be in it more for the winning , I can also enjoy the competitive side of it as well but less so than the intrinsic aspect of driving.

For pure competition games like CSGO are better than driving simulators, for a start everyone is going to be using the same equipment and you don't have to faf around with so much stuff.
then everyone is not using different set-ups and all that bolox ( which is fine but I think gets in the way of the raw competitive aspect of who can drive better )

Also due to the total lack of users playing sim racing and that there are probably only 30,000 people spread over the world to race on-line with there is a very small number of people you can actually get a good race going with.

I mean evan real world sports like table tennis from a pure experience offer more than driving simulators

Most of us would hardly touch any of the current simulators if we had the cash and to race for real

Other than out of interest of the art of simulation, the progress of IT and software.

I think the main reason real world drivers use simulators is because of artificial rules and the engineering side of the sport. Most of them if allowed within the rules would simply do test days in real life.

 

Muscle cars by definition are designed more for their power than for their handling abilities. What is called a muscle car today though is different than what it was in the 60's and 70's. Today's muscle cars are closer to GT cars than the earlier ones.

That being said, they did actually race muscle cars on road courses and the results were rather interesting. The back ends of the muscle cars behaved similar to what you would expect driving a Porsche 911 race car. I say this in respect to the way that you have to let the back end hang out a little for best corner speed. With the back hanging out though, have they exceeded maximum grip of the tires? Not really, as they aren't pushing full throttle through the turns, they are only keeping enough throttle to keep the car on the track.

Someone, I can't remember who in another thread here said something that basically tells you have all the best should be driving and likely do. That statement was he steers with the throttle and balances with the wheel. Steering with the throttle means precisely controlling the pressure on the rear wheels to either add oversteer or understeer in order to make the corner. Oversteer may sometimes look like a slide, but is still within the grip level of the tire and therefor controllable with countersteering out of the corner as well as with the throttle.

 

Do engineers work on cars? Do engineers race cars? Are coaches capable of performing as well as their athletes? The answer to all those questions is usually no, but there are some exceptions. Knowing what something is capable of doing and being able to achieve that level of capability yourself might not be possible. For me, it is still a work in progress.

I for one can walk you through everything you need to change in a setup if you tell me what the car is doing or what you want it to do, and I will succesfully make you faster,but I have difficulty making my own setups because I don't have the feel or at least know the feel I am going for. Does this mean I dont' know what I am doing when it comes to setups? No, it just means I can't translate what I think I am feeling into what is actually happening, but others are more capable of feeling the car and explaining what is happening.

I am also able to see what someone is doing and know what needs to be done to prevent the bad parts from happening again, but putting them to practice takes me a bit of time. I have read and understand race theory, and have a very good knowledge of cars as far as how they are put together and how each part interacts with any other. What it all comes down to is I have the "book knowledge" but not the "practical knowledge" to compete against you and have a good chance to beat you. I am however confident in my ability to control a car to my limitations.