What I believe to be wrong with the RF2 tire model / grip levels / lack of control

irrelevant - i've already explained why - but i'll explain it again then - despite you falling back on the argument of 'oh its only in beta still'.....youve sustained your arguments in this entire thread, that argument being 'rfactor 2 is better than these other sims and is more like real life because of x y z'

if youre now saying 'well its only in beta, can't say anything', then youre effectively saying 'yes we know rf2 is flawed, we are waiting for it to be finished'. But thats not what 'the rfactor 2 side' have been argueing.

again, irrelevant, i'll explain why - we're not talking about feel here at all. What we're talking about is what the car is doing, how its responding when at, and over, the levels of available grip in the game. If you try and do the same things you can do in real life, in netkar pro - you can do it (eg driving out of a slow corner, with maxed out throttle, and controlling any oversteer with steering). Try doing that in rfactor 2, and you just cannot. It highlights a massive flaw in ISI's current physics modelling.
Again, i'll point you to the Q&A Kunos article as it explains everything perfectly. (link in my last post).

not sure what your point is here really, especially on the last sentence. Regarding the fudged FFB in netkar pro - Good, is all I can say. It is probably the only way youre going to be able to convey that 'seat of the pants' feeling, if you fudge the FFB so that it gives you crucial information about what the car is doing on the limit.

Is this a joke. If the car is sliding.........understeer or oversteer.........BY DEFINITION it is Over the maximum grip level of the tire.
Either there is serious miscommunication here, or its just semantics, or we're using different words to describe what's going on.
The 'seat of the pants' feedback again is irrelevant, because you can SEE IN THE VIDEO what the driver is doing with the steering wheel, and you can HEAR WITH YOUR EYES what hes doing with the throttle from the engine note.

Therefore, for this discussion, talking about 'seat of the pants' feel is totally irrelevant.
Don't get me wrong, its probably the single most important thing when you're driving on the limit - as i can testify. How the driver processes the information he's getting from ffb/seat of the pants/g force is up to him - but the output is always the same..........through Steering. Throttle. Brakes. Those are the outputs, and this we can analyse.

From my personal experience, when i was balancing the car on the limit and over the limit (as is very clear in my video on some corners) i would say maybe 60% of the information i needed to control the car on the limit, was coming from 'seat of the pants' and a sense of 'balance' which i can't explain. In terms of the FFB coming through the steering wheel, the steering wheel effectively corrects itself during oversteer - the car always wants to travel in the path of least resistance, which is in a straight line.
During understeer, the wheel communicated to me exactly the point where the front tyres were starting to scrub and wash out, so FFB in Understeer is much more important, maybe 70% of the info from steering wheel information.

But anyway - All of that paragraph is totally irrelevant to this discussion, I just thought I'd respond directly to what you said, and your obsession with 'seat of the pants' - because you're mixing that up with the outputs. You're mixing up the inputs and the outputs, basically.

Well....yes that does mean it is majorly flawed. what DEFINES these games, and what defines a sim from a console game, is the way the car is behaving on the grip limit, and over it. And to add to that - the better the game is at these points - the more depth it has, the more you can do with the various outputs (steering throttle brake) and the harder it is to do that 'perfect lap'. Tire Grip and Slip angle are arguably the 2 MOST IMPORTANT ASPECTS of a simracing game...So if these are flawed.........then yes....the game is majorly flawed.

Regarding the 'opinions about past the point of grip' - indeed things are getting fuzzy....which is why im constantly falling back on my videos to demonstrate what these cars are like on-throttle and how driveable cars really are (if you have the talent).

Yes we do, its in netkar pro - go play it.

What...even at the expense of reality. What is your basis for saying rfactor 2 is more real and accurate? Oh they use real tire data? Okay - how do you know the maths is correct? I read somewhere that Mclaren F1 team have spent over 10 YEARS developing their tire model.

Define 'accurate' and 'faked' in this context? I would much rather have a sim thats 'faked' but lets you do things you can in real life....than a sim where you can't - by definition then...its not as accurate is it.

and FYI - I had a go in a motion simulation - Cruden Hexatech (google it) at the German grand prix at hockenheim this year.
I asked them to change the settings to proffessional (because they were running it in n00b mode for people). They agreed (because i told them about my simracing experience). It makes it much tougher to drive more accurately, there was Way too much movement.

Now arguably they could have done this just to show off the technology. I found that the way it was setup, the visual information you were getting didn't match up with the gforce information you were getting from the motion.
I will say also the software they were using was their 'own development' and wasn't particularly good at all (which is why f1 teams generally develop their own software - rfactor pro is a great example of this, a modular base in which teams plug in their own modules)


Also - youtube 'f1 simulators' and look at what some of the f1 teams use - i think theres quite a few from Mclaren, RedBull, some proffessional one that is rented out to other F1 teams - you see hardly any motion on those. What they simulate are bumps and knocks, maybe subtle movements left and right. When you're driving in real life - these g force movements provide information, you're not particularly aware of them. You ain't missing anything from not having a motion simulator, apart from maybe some fun, just because its interesting to be sat in a moving chair.

Its true in a sim you drive more by eyes and ears, just because we're missing the seat of the pants..........However......That information CAN be conveyed through 'fudged' FFB, which is why netkar pro is amazing.

 

Yes but which part of racing simulator don't you understand?.... I mean, we're talking consumer sims, not pro sims which assume all sorts of additional factors, as such, it's ineffective to worship on paper physics at the expense of the end user, and it makes far more sense if fudging allows us to mimic real life better.

I'm not sure why this is such a difficult concept to grasp, especially as it's always the case that the best drivers rise to the top, so good drivers/experts will always have an advantage, the time gap might be smaller, but an expert driver will always achieve a faster time.

 

???

THere is only 1 thing thats clear in both videos i posted - and its this.
You can apply 100% throttle whilst steering out of something (even in a 750bhp 600kg f1 car on a formation lap) with no problems.
Schumi makes this VERY clear, especially when hes about to line up on the grid, Guns the throttle, and wiggles the car left and right (he even upshifts whilst still maxed out on throttle).

Its as if youre trying to deny what youre seeing.


You simply cannot do this in rfactor 2 - you either have to stick to the game rules or spin off - there is absolutely no degree of variation in the level of slip, it feels like there is no slip angle, period.
However, there IS in netkar pro + to top it all off, they even give you the information of this via the FFB. Brilliant!

 

Exactly, and it's not that I even want to equal the best times, I just want to stop having bizarre spins in some cars{N-GTR}.
I'll see if I can dig up the video of a guy racing an older Porsche at Spa recently, the car's constant sliding was unbelievable, but he always had a correction, and continued to drive lap after lap looking like he was driving in the rain given how slippery the rear was.

 

It's a combo of fanboyism and hero worship, ie, schumi can do it, but us mere mortals can't even with 1000's of hrs practice.
GSC 2012 Camaro probably has the best 1st and 2nd gear behaviour of any sim, and their modern F1 car is also a real champ....though I doubt even that vehicle would allow us to copy schumi.

 

Just as long as the end result is a very drivable and realistic behaving and feeling game, they can put the lotto numbers in for all I care, I want a racing simulator that actually takes me into account.

 

It's no more complicated than this......

 

WOW, I dont even know what to say to that one. What you said here is even worse than the real drivers dont rely on memorizing car handling and anticipating them, its all seat of the pants and pure in the moment feel, WOW.

Well hey, you keep driving by pure senses and no brain and theory if thats what works for you.

I honestly am done with you after you could say something so shockingly, un-imaginably ridiculous and narrow minded WOW. I have lost all my respect for how much you actually know about the theories and techniques and principles of very high performance driving situations, repeatedly showing a video of correcting oversteer doesnt impress me either, my friends who dont know crap about cars can correct oversteer aswell, BUT, if that oversteer were to occur when he was already at the limit of the cars outright grip in the middle of a 160 km/h corner, where he is leaning on the rear end, and is jusssst on the limit, and can feel it getting squirmish as he is jusssst on the limit at the edge of grip in a qualifying lap in some real fast sweeper, THEN if he just floored the throttle like some idiot, well trust me, the oversteer wouldnt be as nice and progressive as in your video.

P.S. On a side note to everyone here.... take these 2 videos how you wish, I bet there will be a million excuses about why this happened, hmmm maybe the physics were wrong that day....

 

Spinelli, youve taken what ive said totally out of context.

I even explain later on in my post about seat of the pants and how important it is.

Shame on you.

Also LOL the examples youve given ACTUALLY HELP MY ARGUMENT LOL.

Alonso - Recovers it from a half spin, OVER A KERB ONTO GRASS.
Do that in RF2 and you do a 720.

Picquet - Spins off innitially, KEEPS HIS FOOT IN (You can see this from the smoking tyres), DOES A DOUGHNUT, CONTINUES to keep his foot in (you can see from the smoking tyres) and drives off, in a hollywood style drift. He even leaves a line of rubber, from the inside rear wheel thats spinning, as he drives off out of camera view.

Your videos youve just posted....actually help my case. Lol.

 

Imo Alonso is moving the steering wheel way fast.

 

He doesnt keep his foot planted, he is modulating the throttle accordingly and adjusting, he could be using 18% throttle you wouldnt even know it you seem to think that every oversteer is controllable no matter what state the car was in before the oversteer was initiated and no matter what you do with the throttle, as long as you get enough feel you can control all oversteer, sorry not like that. Theres things called snap spins/oversteer where there is no warning, just boom all of a sudden your spinning. Its happened to me, ive seen it happen to massa, ive seen it happen many times, oh and I just saw it happen above in the piquet example, and those are the easiest slides to control because PRIOR to the slide he was WELLLLLLL below the limit of grip (you dont seem to understand this part either as you said "Is this a joke" to Gearjammer who was attempting to say the same thing to you.)

rF2 isnt perfect, neither is NKP. I explained in my few posts in page 6.

With regards to real life you seem to just think every single oversteer moment is controllable if you have enough feel/are good enough. There are times you loose it with no warning in real life.

 

I guess we are talking about 2 different things then. First off, what shumi does may not be what any of us can do. First off, he is 100% familiar with his car and it's abilities. Second, his skill level is likely, but I have to say it so I don't get mis-quoted here, but not always, a lot higher than anyone that is using this sim. There are of course exceptions looking at all the aliens out there, but the average user is not going to be able to control an F1 car like shumi, not even close.

The question then comes down to this: Do we want a sim that anyone can drive regardless of skill level at the sacrifice of some realism, or do we want a sim that is as realistic as it can get? When it comes to realism, I am sorry to say to you guys, but you can't beat the math. Math is what makes any sim real, nothing else. Without real math, there is no realism.

As mentioned above, my thinking is in the realm of realism, I would rather have real physics and real tire data and real FFB as would be seen and felt in a real car than off the mark math and FFB. This is my opinion and the way I would like to see things done. If ISI decides they want to cater to anyone that is capable of turning a wheel and stepping on a pedal, then that is their choice.

I am currently able to control any of the cars in rF2 without loss of control on any of the current tracks that have been released by ISI and I have driven on a few of the modded tracks as well with the same result. I am not the fastest and currently not as consistent as I would like to be, but the cars with proper setups to me are doing what they should be doing. If I exceed grip levels then I am off track, that is true, but in the same situations in real life, I expect with my level of skill I would still be off track.

Is the tire data perfect, no, is the sim perfect, no, is the sim still being developed, yes. I expect some of you to say I am going back to the "It's still a beta" argument, but I am not. I still maintain that the physics as far as I can tell are real with some small areas that need work. Do these small areas constitute major flaws? To me, no, they only point to areas that need some work. Your idea of a major flaw and mine are likely to be different.

In math, do you know how much variance is required to represent a major flaw? In car physics do you know how much? If you allow for a 3% variance in the resultant data, you could very likely be within tolerances depending on the demands required. 3% is quite a bit when talking about car physics. A major flaw in my opinion would be something that resulted in more than a 5% variance in data output. I don't have the data so I can't say with any certainty what the variance currently is, but with what I feel and see, it doesn't seem like more than the lower amount.

 

Different folks are looking for different things and some are seeking multiple things together that require art & tradeoffs. For example, I want the car I am driving on a track to feel like that car on that track and I want the car to react to my driving on the track like the real car would react to the real track and I want the driver that would win the race if it were a real race to win the virtual race.

 

One other thing. I don't care about the math as I believe as long as modders have control to make the cars do what they need them to do or fudge the physics then I'm good b/c in reality folks like Historix are going to save the day anyway unless rf2 somehow keeps them from full creative ability. So go gold already and bring on Historix 2 and the other really good stuff and if it ends up not working then fine we'll all stick with rf1. Interestingly, all this new fangled shiny stuff like dynamics, etc. seems like a waste when so much fuss over the basics. If I had my choice I would stick with rf1 but rf2s existence has blunted that severely b/c so-called short life now of rf1. Bummer.

 

Gearjammer, Spinelli - i challenge you both to a race online, in rfactor 2- name a track, name a car, we'll go online tonight and settle this , once and for all (fixed setup, whatever you choose)

If i beat both of you, you will both have to accept that i am better than you at rfactor 2, and therefore have more ability in the game, and therefore have more authority over what i say.

Do you accept the challenge? if not, i win by default.

 

Hi guys,

Interesting discussions going on here. It even made me buy NKpro yesterday to give it decent try myself, as before I had only played the demo. First impressions next to those I had with the 1600: a very drivable en enjoyable sim. And to relate to the discussions here, I found the slip angles, especially at low speed, better simulated than in RF2. On the other hand, like already voiced in this thread before, I also wonder if the overall slip angles aren't a bit exaggerated. I tried the fastest formula car in the dry on a circuit I hardly know, and could instantly throw it around as I wanted to while drive reasonably fast. I have multiple years of sim-racing experience and sometimes have a go in a street car at the Nordschleife, but should it be possible for someone with this limited experience to do that out of the blue? I wouldn't know..
After that I went back to RF2 and took the 370Z for a spin in the wet at PBI. And one of a spin it was; exiting a tight left-hander, the car suddenly spun away from me, rotated 180 degrees. The 370Z being a moderately heavy car on such a slippery surface, it shouldn't have spun so vehemently IMO.
Of course above examples are hard to compare, because both are subject to different circumstances. Even when comparing 2 very similar cars under very similar conditions, there are still to many variables at play to make a decent comparison. Nonetheless I feel that maybe NKpro allows for too great slip angles with a too progressive nature, whereas RF2 for too little with a too abrupt nature, especially at lower speeds.
I hope my rhetoric is understandable, using the right definitions to express ones feeling is hard

Greets,

R

 

Dude, +1 on not worshipping paper physics. Doesn't matter a shred if car doesn't drive or feel or respond as closely as it can to real life.

 

I thought of a different way to argue this point that might make more sense. The advantages of going outside for a smoke, go figure, heheh.

Consider this scenario: The driver is rounding a corner heading towards the apex. He modulates the throttle to try and keep the car on the edge, but goes a little heavy causing the rear tires to exceed their grip level. This results in the back end breaking loose and starting to come around.

The rear tires are already beyond their ability to grip, and the best way to get grip back would be to back off the throttle and allow the tires to regain grip. Applying more throttle to come out of the corner will only prolong the time that the tires are beyond the grip level required to take the corner. Do the tires have some grip in them still, yes, as can be seen by cars drifting through corners at times. Does it take skill to do this? Absolutely. If you feel you have that sort of skill, and your throttle on your pedal set is as accurate as a real car and there is no, as in 0% input delay, then you should be able to handle this as well.

However, because we can't feel exactly when we start to lose grip, and because our input may not be as accurate and has a little bit of lag, it becomes exponentially more difficult to control the slide.

Also, as pointed out by someone above, in those video's as it is in real life, just because we hear an engine bounce on the rev limiter, doesn't mean the driver is applying full throttle. It only means he has applied enough to keep the wheel spin high enough for the engine to hit the limiter. In real life, you can red line an engine with about 10% throttle, give or take a little depending on the car. Add to that a little bit of resistance or load from trying to turn the tires and the amount might rise to around 15% to sustain a tire spin like that, especially with a high power to weight ratio like an F1 car. When the tires have 100% grip the throttle amounts changes dramatically.

 

Sure NKP suffers from a lack of grip in general with allot of the cars in that evan when within the normal tire envalope they slide around to much I don't think any sim is perfect.

Allot of people just like NKP though because of the depth and the sohpisitcation of the physics model. Some people seem to think when at the racing edge RF2 has more depth. But I would say NKP has far more depth and realism Way before you start doing silly slides. Its possable that the cars might alow to much angle in some situations but when you are doing this you are scrubbing of so much time you have wasted your lap time anyway , having said that from everythign i have seen real world cars let you drive them badly and get away with it simular to that of NKP.

Mind you just drive the OSSELA its probably one of the best simulated cars and has better overall grip levels than the other cars in the game.

This Guy is totally ragging the car over revving, hammering the throtel and yanking the car into corners yet the car remains pionting where he wants it and quite happy ( though i bet his lap times are awful compared to sumoen driving properly) Apparently he got better over time and went on to win the radical championship he was a former rally driver now he does drifting.

I'd say that's fair NKP tends to drive more abrupt and less progressive on the better tracks with more track texture, allot of the smooth feel from NKP comes from the pore overly flat track models. It will be fascinating to see how AC drives with laser scanned tracks and there new tire model.