What I believe to be wrong with the RF2 tire model / grip levels / lack of control

Oh, not bad driving at all. So you were intentionally driving like a n00b in the first video.

 

Sure its fine that some cars have huge torque relative to weight and the wheels then spin up or you have to be progressive on the accelerator , but when the back starts to step out if you counter steer or lay off the accel real cars tend to want to grip back in far sooner than the cars in RF2.

Real cars all the way up to F1 let you drive along foot to the floor with the rear wheels spinning , and the driver keeping the car pointing forwards with steering alone , Because evan though the rears are spinning the car still has a reasonable degree of rear grip and bite.

you will also notice that cars can get into an almost micro drift when doing and pulling out of tight slow corners you can see the reer wheels spin up and lay down rubber as the car goes around it.

 

LOL yes although it seems everyone missed that , despite the fact i was driving with 1 hand and the video was called Over-driving the Nissan GT-

and at the start of the video it says on screen "over driving car to demonstrate physics"

oh well LOL , I myself am guilty of not reading video titles or text so i cannot really complain I should have narrated the video.

 

Even top drivers won't push the limit in a new car and on a new track, they will do a few laps to learn what they need to know before pushing it. The top drivers are fast at learning tracks and cars as long as the car is setup with a well balanced configuration. This is a fact and you can talk to any real race driver about it and they will confirm it.

How can you push to the limit if you don't know what to expect? You can't you take things easy so that the car will make it around the track until you get to know the car and track. I am not saying that you don't go fast, you just don't put yourself in a position to where you might exceed the limits before you know the limits. In real racing, cars cost money, some times hundreds of thousands of dollars. The driver is not going to take a chance of incurring that kind of repair bill as it will either make him go broke, or make him lose his ride.

Do you really believe that? I would like to see anyone hold a high performance car straight or pointing in the right direction when they have massive power to weight ratios with the pedal to the floor. You would end up doing donuts fast and be burning up your tires at the same time.

Don't mistake what you see on TV or what ever as doing it with full throttle, those guys are using their clutch and throttle control to keep as much traction as possible. Not to mention the fact that if they did hold full throttle they would exceed redline and blow the engine.

 

Go to 34seconds then 56 seconds for slomo

Obvously you dont want to be doing this in normal race conditions. But the piont is you can utterly gun the rear wheels and still have the car remain pionting where you want it ( so long as you are a good driver)

I also agree even in the video its likely he might be modulating the throttle though cannot tell from the sound.

The main issue is that in RF2 and allot of simulators you get Ice wheels in when the rear wheels spin up even though in reality they still have a degree of grip , this then comes into play when taking a tight corner in race conditions where you would be doing a very slight wheel spin or subtle drift mid corner whilst feeling out the grip.

 

What about that guy with motion seat/cockpit, it would not be much of simulation for him to have fake forces to steering, would it?

I use throttle to steer all time, car tells how much it has left before getting into a trouble, but for that one needs to warm up the car and tires.

Engine, inertia and how power comes out when you use throttle, that I think has something to do with it.

For me fraps does not record sound. does not record at good fps and does weird stops. If fraps is not recording it still manages to kill fps to half or so and makes those pulsating stops. It used to be good program, but it is no more for me. I post replays, anyone can make a video from those or just watch it at full quality, they are also much smaller than videos.

If there would be replay fridge like in rF1, then I too could make videos, but then you would be horrified of poor driving.

 

James, for the 800th time, Doing big slides/drifts/spiining the wheels when you are not even near the edge of grip like in you examples are COMPLETELY 10000 X different than getting into real wheel spin/slide situations when you are HEAVILY leaning on the cars grip limits before you even initiate the slide.

 

Seeing as driving simulators are NOTHING LIKE REAL LIFE in the first place and that 90% of people don't have a cockpit with decent movement and even the best ones don't come close to real life. I think its safe to assume that all consumer driving simulators are going to need to abstract the FFB to some extent.

NKP I believe does the best job of communicating car load without interfering with how you would expect a wheel to move. RF1 evan mixed G's into the FFB and some Mods used this very well. i know Tim said something about them messing around with this in RF2 , though at this piont in time I think RF2 takes everything from front tires like Real feel did.

That is all FFB though , the general idea of this thread was to talk more about the tires and car stability outside of FFB. Though as some people have pointed out there is a point where FFB merges with the car stability , for example if set up right FFB will auto correct the car keeping it stable , and in nkp the game lets you feel grip levels before you start to slide makign it easer to balance through corners without sliding.

 

I don't think he is going to accept that Spinelli, but we have tried to make him understand. I am getting the impression that he is talking one thing and thinking something entirely different.

 

One other thing to note here is that the stock setup for some of the cars in rF2 are not optimal, nor even very close to it. What is the cause of the back end coming round on a car? Usually it is due to either exceeding the grip of the tire, or not allowing the weight to transfer or stay on the rear tires. The GTR is one of the cars that you have to tweak the setup right out of the box to keep that from happening.

 

I think the piont is if NKP can give you warning of rear through FFB why cannot RF2

on top of that If NKP still matains stability/driver control when the rear steps out closer to that of real life then why cannot RF2 ?


I don't think anyone disagrees that you can obviously feel more in real life , in many ways its far easer to drive in real life and in many other ways its far harder to drive in real life.

 

You dont think its like that in real life? If you were somehow forced to push EXACTLY the same amount in real life as in the sim, and use as much/hard throttle and steering inputs in real life as in the sim, no matter what the car was telliing you, you were forced to replicate your exact application from sim to reality in the exactl same track rubbered in or un-rubbered in as it was in the sim etc etc? Im pretty sure it would be very similiar just in real life you would get wayyyyy more feeling from the car telling you about the rear end sliding, hoping around, getting nervous, etc and therefore you would compensate/adjust your steering/throttle/braking/overall speed much before hand than in the sim, which in turn gets you less sliding and less bad car behaviour, which in turn makes it looks easier and more stable than in the sim, hich in turn makes the sim look more difficult and fake.

Ya id like to see someone pushing the to MAX grip limits of all 4 tyres throughout a turn, and THEN get it into a nice controlled drift, id like to see someone already on the limit on a qualifying lap give it a nice drift through 130R at Suzuka, through the snake section, through poughon at spa, etc etc etc, COMPLETELY DIFFERENT than a guy initiating oversteer before hes on the limit of grip.

 

OK, now your back to talking about FFB and not grip levels and physics. In order to get information about the back end of the car stepping out, you need to translate the rotation of the front grip to the wheel. By the time this happens in real life, you are already into the slide/drift and have lost precious 10th's of a second on your chance to recover. The fact that NKP does this tells me they have made some compensations for the feel and reduced the reality factor of the FFB.

 

In the end its all maths going though a calculator the output is what matters if NKP drives more real then it drives more real regardless of how they do it.

If you have it like RF2 with no FFB of the weighting of the car or rear tires you lose the reality factor in the sense that you are driving with out one of the most important parts of information.

The main point is about how stable cars are once a slide however small starts and how the cars respond to driver input outside of FFB the reason in that specific sentence I brought up FFB was to simply state that if 1 game can do it why cannot another.

 

The impossible has happened, I agree with Spinelli.

When my car breaks loose at the track it makes my heart race. Hell, my hands shake a bit and I have to take it to 8/10ths for half a lap to calm a bit. General rule with most groups is two wheels off the track means a visit into the pits. Twice in one session and you are done for that run, keeps us wannabe's from getting too stupid out there. Do I get this feeling pushing a car into a drift on the backroads, no, the way the car behaves is very different. It is all fun with no stress.

My sim experience is limited but I do have nKPro and rF2 installed and play both with a T500 F1. nKPro is fun and no stress. I cannot throw an Atom around VIR like a pro but I can take the top formula car (KR500?) in nKPro around lap after lap just killing it. Slides, np, I can catch most of them. The game is great to drive and it makes you feel great as a driver, too great. Not saying the ffb is worse or better just that the sum of the experience is too simple.

In rF2 I have to work hard to get the best out of the FR3.5 (low 1:49s at Sepang and that isn't even a competitive time) and if I push it too far it gets ugly fast. While this is overdone depending on the car being used (F-ISI?), the sum of the experience is more real. Just my opinion and based on my experience.

 

Mega quote mate.it's funny seeing him driving with only one finger...if you want to have a better controll of the car you must hold the steering wheel strongly with two arms!

 

In the end everything we do with computers is all math, but the math has to be done in a specific order or else it fails. You can't get FFB to work properly until the physics for the tires and the car are done properly. By properly I mean as real as the producers are aiming for.

Since we know that ISI is still working on the tire model, then we can postulate from this that the FFB is not going to be as accurate as what they would like. That being said, I would prefer realism over faked FFB as fake doesn't make me learn, real does.

 

And why every one says NKP here NKP there....if you think that NKP is the best simulator ever,fine,go and play it ! I played iRacing for 3months and I didn't like it and I switched to rF2 but i never went to iRacing forum to say rF2 here and rF2 is there...so please stop it!!!!!!!!!!!