What I believe to be wrong with the RF2 tire model / grip levels / lack of control

I hope to have some decent graphic card... I will try to do It today, but with lowest graphic options, I can't do more with this PC

Edit(more hahaha): I will try to capture a MoTeC log too, is more accurate than a vid.

 

I hope ISI will no make a clone of netKar.
There are already a Netkar, no need a second

But if I was ISI I will not try to copy a game with no players

 

Also that kind of biting is something I don't really find from NKP, things happen so progressively that even slow bloke like myself have plenty of time to react to them.

Brake temps with GTR seem also bit problematic for me, quite often rear brakes are closer to optimal temp or after longer braking front brakes are too hot, now when in other situations I would need front brakes cooler and other situations hotter it is bit difficult to really adjust them so that when braking rear would not lock first, usually front locks long before rear, but then there is turn or two where still rear locks up before, making it bit hard to control.

Slow turns when accelerating seem not to cause issues to me, sure there is some wheelspin, but car is not going instantly sideways like with default setup.

For some turns I purposely put car bit sideways when braking and use throttle to go trough corner, quite fun, but bad for tires, I managed to destroy rear tires in just 9 laps, wear bar was red. But when sideways it is quite well controllable with throttle.

I don't know why default setup is so horrible, maybe such works better when you feel g-forces etc. but maybe it would be better to have default setups such that they are quite safe and easy to drive, so less experienced ones would not end same pile at T1 on servers as they probably don't know how to setup car, but those who can setup car, could work from safe setup something usable easily.

I fail to follow why spinning rear tires should affect forces at steering arm though, I'm pretty sure such does not happen with my RWD car?

Camaro in GSC is not anything like GT1 car, from street car, even high performance one, it is really long way to GT1 car, they have 4 wheels, but they are not comparable in any way, even GT4 is not very well comparable because of tires used in it, but it is bit closer already and difference between GT1 and GT4 is huge.

Talk about GT1 not having grip at low speed is bit odd, 1.6G at under 60kph speed is quite lot of grip and it can still put down torque for at least 0.4G acceleration, it has a ton of grip, imo.

Maybe it would be easier to 'feel' that if there would be visible hood from interior view? That has quite a bit effect for those visual cues we tend to pick up while trying to see if car is oversteering or not.

My seat position is something like -254, 0, don't know if that matters, but I set it so far back because I saw driver sitting quite backl in car, so I adjusted seat so back that when I look to side I could see window being in spot where I imagine it should be if I would sit in car same spot as I see driver to be sitting.

I don't find GT1 car being difficult to drive at or over the limit, not easy like golf cart, but not very difficult either and I'm not very good driver, but I adjust setup so that it supports my driving.

 

I think that... I don't understand people talking about rFactor 2 if they are sooooo happy with their sims

 

Use Motec, with the graph where there are tyre temperature you can see mini pic of temperature due to micro "drift". Work on tyre temp is really impressive on RF2

PS : I just see with lateral forces on graph, it's easier to see micro drift.

 

Obviously noone wants ISI to make NKP the point is I want the best parts of RF1/RF2 mixed with the best parts of NKP

1) Solid FFB with good feel for rear of car
2) appropriately Progressive tires ( that behave like real cars tires when it comes to gaining and losing grip at there limmit)
3) Good bite and some twitchy aspects of RF2 cars
4) solid car behaver at low speed
5) solid car behaver when rear wheels spin

Not as important but it would be nice to have

1) Proper next generation graphics ( especially high resolution car insides and proper lighting and shadows )
2) Decent quality sound especially in-car engine noises and skid sounds.
3) patching and interface system that's modern intuitive and clean
4) User interface that's simple intuitive modern and clean.


I have never said NKP is perfect same with Game stock car its just that aspects of those simulators are better than what is found in RF2.

 

I believe that wasn't about a crash, but about the cause of crash. Driver caught slight oversteer at exit of right hand turn and wasn't able to turn left in time. That's because he wasn't fully in control of the car and needed to regain control first. He ran out of road before he was able to do it.

This is a perfect example what can happen if rear end will step out just slightly - you can crash.

I've seen a lot of GT1 races. Rear end stepping out? Rare thing and usually followed by commentary: "Driver X had a moment right there."

I think you're making a mistake by believing all cars should handle very similar. There's a reason why even professional drivers can spin sometimes and why they get of the throttle when rear end steps out.

In some car's you can power out of oversteer, in some you can't. Here's an example from rFactor:

Aston Martin is well balanced racing car - I can let rear end step out slightly but I must be more careful with throttle.
BMW M1 from DRM mod is more understeer and therefore it's easier to keep it in control.
Dodge is very understeer and I can overdrive it more than previous two cars.

In all cases I was at full throttle (literally floored) except for Aston and exitting slides in Dodge, because I didn't want to overcorrect it.
Aston simply required me to lift off when rear end stepped out a bit too fast or too much while other cars allowed full throttle.

See my point? It depends on a car.

You can't expect a modern F1 car in rF2 to act like vintage muscle car. A few pages back someone posted a video with Murcielago loosing rear end slightly exitting of turn one at Zolder. You could clearily see that he didn't just power out of it - he lifted off and tried to regain control.
This is what I expect of modern GT car in simulation, not some kind of drifting.

 

For point 4, I repeat, 2G of lateral forces with cold tyre in a slow turn (where you have no down forces) it's already solid car behavior at low speed, It's impossible to take 4G in this condition !
5) see my example, I can drift despite I was too fast in turn, solid car behavior when rear wheels spin (I'm not god, I suppose)

I'm agree with Feels3

 

FFB is connected to tires that turn, those are at front usually, so having ffb from rear wheel would be completely unrealistic.

I think that what you want is to car to have bump steer, imo that makes that feel you like to have and what is there with 60's formula cars, it gives feel of weight transfer.

But what if car really don't have such, it should be faked so that we can go to arcade gaming instead of simulation?

There probably lies main problem.

 

Here a video of my test with no AIs and clean road. I use a setup with 100L of fuel and stable (It was for a 100laps event in Mid-Ohio). My hotlap today is 1:17 low, but is possible to reach 15s with rubbered track and used tires (with good temperature) with less than 50L of fuel.

Please, no comments about graphic quality, I have very bad graphic card and I must to have all in low without shadows.

I have replay files too if someone want to see entire test with detail (more than 10 consecutive laps), there are better or worse laps, but in most of them there are some type of slide, understeer, oversteer, "micro-slides"... With slow motion and by looking at the rear can be viewed how slides in many corners without losing grip or speed and without need of grinding with the steering. Sometimes I can just exit the corner with the throttle without further turning the wheel. Aligning the car only accelerating in the last instant.

It is not something that can be seen with the naked eye, and unfortunately not too easy to notice in the FFB, but it is possible, and if you can not handle the car when you lose traction not mean it is not possible, simply because you do not have enough practice or ability.

My replay files here, test and hotlap of that test, I can't upload It to ISI forums:
http://www.mediafire.com/?5vxx9i6uh27zf7q

 

Good thing you added the "drifting on slick tyres in the dry" comment, because I was about to bring up either modern vintage racing or just replicating old racing series, where drifting was not only prevalent, it was often the fastest way around. But that was indeed with old fashioned bias ply tyres.

Nice video, is that a project you're working on? One question though, does the Clio run on slicks or street tyres? I always assumed slicks for some reason. The rTrainer on the other hand definitely runs on street tyres and is a glorious drifter, those tyres might be worth a look too.

If rF2 indeed has a lot of the same issues as rF1 I still find it hard to defend it by using that particular quote from Niels. When he says "rF1 + some unimportant changes + a new tire model it basically leaves mainly the suspension stuff and gravity/inertia calculations as carry over from rF1, and what you guys have been complaining about all the time is tyre behavior. Not saying your complaints aren't justified, just that what Niels said there isn't really backing them up either.

But yeah, tyres should on the whole be more progressive and dynamic in feeling. Niels is one of the few who's gotten that right in rF1 (Corvette C6, Toyota Supra, Historic GT & Touring Cars, Game Stock Car...), and a large part of the reason it's been so hard is that steady state tyre models (like in rF1) simply don't work that well in transient grip states, and they more or less need to be hacked to feel like real tyres. rF2 has a largely dynamic tyre model though (a 6 DOF dynamic brush model for the contact patch, admittedly the carcass simulation is pre-calculated) and hopefully when it's finished it'll be as progressive as reality. Even in it's unfinished state the signs are good, the tyre updates we've seen have made the open-wheelers much more dynamic and progressive in handling and at least the rTrainer has a very progressive feel when drifting around.

 

My WIP Volvo project in that video, Clio uses slick tires, Michelin S9C from my memory, I used slicks as I'm currently working physics of one track day toy version of that car, no street tires is worthy of that amount of power.

I also wanted to use tire that is used in close to same weight car, rTrainer is very light vehicle, tires in it have 5.5mm thread, while street tires have 8-9mm usually, other construction might be street tire like but not quite sure about belt thicknesses, steel belt is 0.9mm thick, while one street tire I did cut had certainly lot less thick steel belt, maybe half from that, so rTrainer tires are quite stiff. I would think that they are semi slicks, they even grip like such?

In Malaysia there is two typically 3rd gear corners right after each other, I usually initiate drift from inner curb of first one and sometimes drift trough second one, then there is another turn that tightens towards end, right hander, Megane, GT1, GT4 and 60's F1 at least love to do some opposite lock fun there and I have only 18 degrees of lock for these cars. Surprisingly easy to control angle with throttle when setup is altered from horrible default one.

It is not the tires.

However, with GT4 car, I have not found way to make it understeer slightly as default, especially at corner entry that tends to very much oversteer, also because rear is so stiff it loses traction on bumpy corners much too easily for my liking, I would like to set rear bit softer than it is possible.

 

So after ranting about people proving themselves you post one good hot lap?! anyone (even me!) can do that, one lap does not make you a good sim racer You certainly like your opinion to be voiced in this thread (I use bold because I like to be heard but it just makes me look needy!) but its just another opinion to me.

I revert everyone back to Tims post #5 in this thread, whilst its great to have conversation like this - dont get me wrong I am enjoying reading it - the basic fact of the matter is the contact patch is still to be updated, that could change a whole manner of things, plus what ISI have learnt with the F2 they may adapt to the GT cars....ongoing project innit....thats the beauty about RF2!

 

1) I only use bold to make clear a specific thing. it makes it easer to read or see a key point so people don't have to read a whole page of my badly spelt internet drivel

2) The point of posting a general video is that it shows at least the person talking can drive a sim car to a basic level and is not having issues simply from the fact they cannot drive.

You have allot of sim racers that complain about a givven sim but it turns out they cannot drive and that's the issue more than the simulator.

For example when I first got RBR It took me a good 3 hours or so to get used to it, I was also new to sim racing back then and at first I was blaming the simulator rather than my lack of skill.

Also That lap was not even that good, as it was lap 8 in that car on that track with the default setup that as many have said is not exactly the best. To set a "good" hot-lap and know a track It takes me about 40-60 laps assuming I already have a good set.

2.1) If anyone wants a race they are welcome I have said before it would just be good fun to have a race with people.

3) Sure just doing one hot lap is just a single aspect of driving in the context of a race consistency over many laps is of more value but seeing as we were not even evaluating that its not important to this conversation.

4) yes we know contact patch is still being worked on and as you said its still interesting trying to decern what is different in each simulator and how each simulator could benefit from each other

 

I have read that being really fast in sim racing usually means one need to exploit holes in physics, don't know if that is true.

So I can't drive GT4 car which I posted video there above?

There was time when I wanted to drive really fast laps, I was not very bad in that, but nowdays I usually don't even look at times, I drive how I would drive real car, I drive to enjoy from driving, after thousands and thousands of laps, also several world records in LFS I find it to be much more fun to just drive, to feel car in your fingertips to be able to make it do whatever you want, usually going sideways, that is lot of fun for me.

So James, what is your best time at Rally School stage, standard RBR cars? I drove this time long time ago, it was pretty fast for me:

 

Dont know I need to reinstall it again

I made this recording a few years back

 

Heheh, I just plain suck at rally, trying though. I might get the hang of it after a while.

 

RBR I must track down my disk that was good fun a while back, it was the most impressive on the full motion simulator I tried too.

But RBR is as far away from a GT car on a race track as your going to get, that's one game where multi screen would be a big help as your looking out the side windows quite a bit. I found that a bit tricky when going completely sideways on a single monitor and track IR made me lose my bearings a bit.

Shame nobody has made a good rally sim since, Ive never driven a real rally car and its high up on my wishlist of things to do.

 

Don't do it, after that all other cars feel like they would lack something.