The use of the clutch and double-[de]clutching in historic racecars discussion

Guy Moulton, you keep hopping back and forth between wether people double clutch, or wether they don't use the clutch at all, while seeming to ignore the more common "normal, clutch once per gear change". Are you assuming that if you don't do clutchless shifting that then you must be double clutching? I'm not sure if you are not understanding what double clutching is, and I can assure you F1 drivers did not double clutch until the 90s. Many F1 drivers used the clutch, but the standard once per gear change blipping while the clutch is pressed method, not double per change..

This topic went from being about double clutching to fully clutchless shifts as if it has to be one or the other, while seeming to ignore just regular plain old single clutching that we almost all do.

Yes you're doing it correctly, that's how it's done almost everytime for the past 40+ years. Double clutching aka the "Push clutch in, shift from 4th to neutral, let clutch out, blip while in neutral to match revs, re-press clutch in, shift from neutral to third, let clutch out again, repeat for next gear, etc" method is not used 99.9% of the times in the last few decades, there are the odd times here and there when it was/is, but extremely rare nonetheless.

 

Spinelli. You are wrong. You have no proof or examples to back up what you say. Please read the document I put together which clearly proves my point. We all understand what your opinion is and it is understood by one and all. You have written the same post with different wording about 20 times now and have yet to prove your point. A litany of professional race car drivers and more than one champion directly contradict your opinion.

Please provide proof, examples, snippets of interviews, book/magazine/other print scans etc to back up your argument. You just keep saying the same thing with nothing to back up what you say. My point is: If Niki Lauda shifts this way, then there has to be some validity. If 2 driving schools say to drive this way (one book written in the 90's, another in '02) then apparently the technique has been used at least up through the 90's. But unless you have some sort of proof, I just plain don't believe your point. Put up or shut up.

 

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_FOy_HHySYqa8mAVErdvh_McYkwhG2FRn3oTvYcqSJE/edit

just in case you want to read it. You'll understand my point better if you do.

 

I don't think you'll win many people over with that attitude. A bunch of people still do it to skip a few gears. Great.

 

For those that commented on heavy truck shifting, having driven for 20 years I think I am pretty much an expert at it. The transmissions don't use synchro's, and there are a lot of drivers who double clutch, but that is mainly the ones that are just getting started or are die hard follow the rules types. The only time in a heavy truck I have ever used the clutch was starting off and stopping. The entire rest of the time my foot never touched the clutch. This was with roadrangers, eatons etc etc. I am talking 8 speeds, 10 speeds, 13 speeds, 15 speeds, 18 speeds, and guys that have driven 52 speeds have done the same. (52 speeds are 13 speeds with a 4 speed brownie trans behind them). Some people might hear me shift and think I double shift, but that is because you have to match engine and trans speed to shift without a clutch. I back off the throttle while pulling out of gear, give the throttle a quick blip so that the shifter will "fall" into the next gear. This is different on downshifts.

 

It'd have to be a one of those "close enough" things because you are 100% right. FFB pedals and shifters are a long way off if they ever make it to mass market at all.

The topic of big trucks and using the clutch is a completely different beast because a truck has SO MUCH torque at very low RPM. A big, heavy, tough clutch that is used to have a lot of low RPM torque driven through it can take the relatively minor abuse of clutchless shifts (I used to work for a tow service and the boss would get mad at guys shifting clutchless... oh well) with no bad effects. Race car engines are a lot different. It can be done but at a cost.

 

Not only is there massive torque Guy, there is also massive inertia on all the moving parts of an engine that has roughly 12L per cylinder.

 

How many cylinders?

 

The syncros on my old Integra were so messed up (lots of flat shifts when I was a dumb kid) I couldn't downshift at all without double clutching. If I didn't get the car into 1st gear before coming to a complete stop (which rarely happened) I had to turn the car off to put it in 1st. I drove it for a year this way before I finally rebuilt it). To this day I can't retrain myself not to double clutch on all my cars. It isn't a bad habit (increases syncro life) so I have no intentions of breaking the habit.

Double clutching is very rarely understood. I have heard people in the local "ricer car scenes" talking about double clutching on upshifts. They are clearly confused. I actually overheard some kids (17 - 20 year olds) talking about street racing and saying they like to triple clutch. HAHAHAHAHA. People also think that simply pressing the clutch in and rev matching while the clutch is down is enough to baby the syncros but what they forget is while the clutch is pressed, the gearbox is decelerating and when they rev match with the clutch pressed, all they are revving is the flywheel, not the tranny, so the syncros work just as hard as they would on a normal shift. The reason for rev matching in neutral with the clutch out is it slings the whole box to the correct speed for the downchange.

But watching lots of videos of modern race cars, I haven't noticed a lot of double clutching.

 

Which essentially does the same thing as double clutching. The key is to have the clutch out while you are in neutral so when you match revs you are slinging the whole gearbox. If you remove the load off the tranny (by lifting the throttle a little) it is rather easy to pull any car into neutral, then if you perfectly match revs you can slip it down to the next gear without the clutch. Especially with dog gears, if it is off a little it will just smash into the next gear. But if you have a synchromesh box with totally worn out syncros you will have a hard time matching revs close enough to slip it into the next gear without using the clutch.

 

Usually heavy truck engines are 6 cylinder, but there are some 4 and some 8 as well. The cylinder is just huge.

You are correct. I can shift without a clutch in my car as well, though the car is tougher because of the quick change in rpms compared to a heavy truck.

 

I've worked with 27L engines but never anything approaching 70+ , must be absolutely enormous . You sure you weren't driving a Ship? I would also guess the word 'blip' has a whole different meaning on something that size.

 

I have been to the schools of Skip Barber, Jim Russell and the Bridgestone Racing Academy, all of them were super insistent on rev matching but NOT using double clutching, just regular single clutch. I have raced 4 different F2000s, an F1600 and had a 2 day test of a 450ish hp BMW powered prototype style car. NONE were ever double clutched, none were ever advised to be double clutched, none were ever double clutched by the instructors/pro-drivers.

If you are the type that can't use common sense and you're own mind to figure things out, and doesn't ever believe a word other people say and can only be convinced of something by using cold hard facts and quotes, then It's simple go on YouTube and watch 1000 onboard videos, you will see that maybe 1% of them have double clutching. Or how about you go to 3 different racing schools like I have, and you practically live at 1 for 9 months? Maybe try reading the entire series of the "Speed Secrets" books, "Drive to win" and more.

If you actually watched motorsports as much and as passionately as you state your case you would see how wrong you are from countless of onboard videos from countless racing series.

If that's not good enough and you require direct quotes and links then maybe if I feel like it I'll look for them tonight. However, wether you believe me or not doesn't change the truth/reality so believe what you want, go double clutch all you want, it takes skill to do it consistently and quickly in racing so kudos to you I guess.

 

Can we get a realistic clutch/tranny model, that's all I want. Options for whoever hosts the game. If we are racing historic cars that have an H, use the clutch..or slow the shift and require rev match. If we are driving F1 cars ... get the picture?

 

This! I have the clutch pedal, but it doesn't work from 12 months so now I use auto-clutch and left foot braking and I'm loving it!

 

Options.... if you join a server that has a realistic setting, have the equipment. If you don't... then you have a penalty.

 

I don't have a clutch pedal either, you can still use auto-clutch off, just blip on the downshifts while you're passing gears during the delay from gear to gear, can be done with sequential/paddles too as there is a delay modeled in almost ever car/mod when going from gear to gear, you blip/lift during that neutral moment. Make sure you have a button mapped on your steering wheel for clutch, used only for when you're stopped.

 

I drive mostly/only modern GT cars so I'm fine without the clutch,!

 

THIS

 

Ya that's what I said, you don't need the clutch, you just disable auto clutch and blip yourself.