lagg
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I only use rF2 in online, and this is what i do.
Everyone have our limits and is good to know them, fight against rivals of your skill, forget the aliens and enjoy the driving.
Thank You 397 but could you fix whats broken first?
- Thread starter MotherDawg
- Start date
Everyone have our limits and is good to know them, fight against rivals of your skill, forget the aliens and enjoy the driving.
lagg
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I don't use it. For me is simple.
It's possible that it due to the car that every one uses. I never drive GT3.
I almost only drive Openwheelers.
Nieubermesch
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Yes, or that. I mean for those that really see this more competitively I guess. In ACC I used to play online a lot and I tried to go for the podium. Sometimes it just wasnt possible, much faster than me, but I still got a lot of food fights with some people around my skill level. So there is that too of course
Nieubermesch
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That's also a very good way to look at it, although I don't think that by using some higher pressures and FFB reasobaly high will be that easy to drive like a maniac and such, you will see that trying to drive on those ways that RF2 allows aren't quite that feasable after all. I agree there is something off with how much play over the limit the game allows, but I see so many people looking at the game and going to far with their accessements to what is wrong and actually compare RF2 to other sims that actually might be more punishing but they actually are just that, aren't really better at simulating driving and car dynamics and that's why I can't give up on Rfactor2. I would like to try IRacing more, but thats just too expensive.
green serpent
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The set-up exploits, yes most likely they are not realistic, but I am not totally convinced at this stage that the driving exploits in rF2 are totally fake exploits (yes I know there is some overlap between the two). The way I see it there are two ways to drive a car fast. Edge up to the limit in small increments and take little "stabs" at the limit (the conventional way to drive fast). Or, purposely go over the limit and then work backwards finding the grip (can be used with understeer and oversteer - for example one can knowingly quickly dial in too much steering angle and get understeer, and then ease back on the steering angle to find the optimum front slip angle, or one can throw the car into a corner and then let the car find the limit as it finds it's groove). I think both can be very fast IRL, and also in rF2. As much as I find myself initially gaining massive chunks of time doing the maximum attack style (probably just from pure agression at trying to be faster), for me personally when it really comes down to it I usually am faster with the conventional style in rF2. I would like to see how Senna or Ari Vatennen would drive a GT car, maybe we would be having a different converstation!
Regarding the physics I agree with someone's post above that there generally does seem like there is too much yaw in rF2 - too much rotation off throttle and too much rotation on throttle (and I think this is maybe exaggerated by tires that are too springy/rubberband-like, basically not ridged enough). BUT, with some tweaks such as adjusting the diff, you can get the cars in rF2 to feel pretty close to the way you want them to feel as far as yaw goes, and in general. THAT to me is why rF2 reigns supreme. The other sims don't feel right, and I can't get them dialed in. rF2 also often dosn't feel right, but I CAN get it dialed in. Of course I want rF2 to be as close to 100% realistic in all aspects but the main thing for me is that I feel like I'm driving a real car, and rF2 is the best at that despite the flaws.
Not that anyone is asking, but for me personally: physics/tyre model > more diverse cars > sounds > A.I > dynamic elements to do with the track surface (such as dirt being kicked onto the track, puddles etc) > more tracks > graphics. I don't mind the UI!
Regarding the physics I agree with someone's post above that there generally does seem like there is too much yaw in rF2 - too much rotation off throttle and too much rotation on throttle (and I think this is maybe exaggerated by tires that are too springy/rubberband-like, basically not ridged enough). BUT, with some tweaks such as adjusting the diff, you can get the cars in rF2 to feel pretty close to the way you want them to feel as far as yaw goes, and in general. THAT to me is why rF2 reigns supreme. The other sims don't feel right, and I can't get them dialed in. rF2 also often dosn't feel right, but I CAN get it dialed in. Of course I want rF2 to be as close to 100% realistic in all aspects but the main thing for me is that I feel like I'm driving a real car, and rF2 is the best at that despite the flaws.
Not that anyone is asking, but for me personally: physics/tyre model > more diverse cars > sounds > A.I > dynamic elements to do with the track surface (such as dirt being kicked onto the track, puddles etc) > more tracks > graphics. I don't mind the UI!
Nieubermesch
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Ahah, is it so bad? I heard it's the absolute opposite of Rf2 over the limit.
Nieubermesch
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Not trying to self promote my videos, but I have some lately that I'm trying to push quite hard (95/100 AI) and I don't need to drive around like a go kart! People really need to understand that FOV also influences a lot of what we perceive of too much rotation! I've made that mistake myself. Also be aware of what is activated with exagerate yaw on Rfactor2 callibration. Doesn't negate some of the physics issues, but I myself have been fooled by those factors into believing more things were not right.
Edit: Oh, and when looking at replay videos be careful as anything bellow high quality in replays will not match 100% to what the physics are doing onboard and will feel weird as hell.
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green serpent
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I've played rF2 like I am looking through a pair of binoculars and I've played rF2 like I am looking through a fish eye lens, and eveything in between (just to experiment and see what it feels like). I have a 1:1 FOV atm, which on my setup is actually a pretty wide FOV. I also have all head physics and other effects off. I still stand by the statement that rF2 "feels" like it has too much rotation (esp. on throttle). When you apply throttle and ask a car to go faster, it wants to trace a WIDER arc, not a smaller arc. Yes this can be overcome if you throttle more with power oversteer, but in rF2, it just feels exagerated with the tightening of the line. I have never driven a racing car irl and played with diff settings so I cannot be totally sure, this is just my perception from my personal experiences. I HAVE driven road cars in oversteer situations, probably hundreds of times both low power and high power cars. When you are tracing a radius around a corner and you put a lot of power down hard, the front of the car might get more pointed towards the apex, but it won't actually tighten the radius unless you follow it up by lowering the speed. Eg. throttle on hard > back of car steps out and nose points toward inside of corner > less throttle > car goes towards inside of corner. But, if you just go > throttle hard > more throttle hard, the front of the car might pont towards the inside of the corner, but the car will go wider.
Again, in rF2, you can make the car handle how you want on throttle by adjusting the diff. From my experience more diff lock makes the car trace a tighter line when on throttle, lessen the diff lock and it'll maintain the line/trace a wider line. This could be 100% correct, but I just can't draw upon personal experience with it. For me, more throttle (without subsequent lift off throttle) = wider line, not tighter line.
Nieubermesch
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Well, yeah, on rotation I also have said that I feel that it can be exploited, I agree, but also depends on the car. It might also be because of differencials and no one is really talking about that aspect of the physics! One only has to look at AMS2 to see that diffs play a huge part on driving model and the game has been having a lot of detractors because of how they work and seem to be bugged in the Madness engine.
But throttle application can really give an help in steering the car, so let's not go to the other extreme and create the opposite problem.
Nieubermesch
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Yeah, thats the core of it all. RF2 suffers from physics issues for sure in my opinion, but can I find anything that is better and more dynamic? I can't really, so I have to sing some praises to RF2 while I still can criticize it though. This decade I'm sure we'll see some great evolutions on simulation for sure.
prceurope
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Nice drive! Is it just me or is the C8.R a very smooth ride compared to the other GTEs? I find that the RSR, the 488 and the Aston all feel like they are sprung tighter and on a track like Sebring it's hard to keep focus with a seat mover. But with the C8.R, it's so much smoother it feels almost like a road car with aero.
Nieubermesch
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Can't say for sure, but it's possible being down to setup and everything. Would have to really pay attention to what's doing what setup wise and the effect on the behavior... But thanks for that!
Take a look at 12:00 of this video and there are many instances reminiscent of RF2. Not sure, but it feels the suspension is stiffer than most cars are in RF2, but if you try to tighten them up, you get fast slides and fast turning, a very nimble car, where in ACC I can't really think of any car that can be made to drive like this. As I said, Rf2 can be broken in some ways, but I don't think people who are raising those questions (maybe like Ermin that has gone to ACC after having criticized the lumbering slides of that game) are taking into account that other games don't even get the on the limit behavior quite right to be honest.
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prceurope
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Can't say for sure, but it's possible being down to setup and everything. Would have to really pay attention to what's doing what setup wise and the effect on the behavior... But thanks for that!
Take a look at 12:00 of this video and there are many instances reminiscent of RF2. Not sure, but it feels the suspension is stiffer than most cars are in RF2, but if you try to tighten them up, you get fast slides and fast turning, a very nimble car, where in ACC I can't really think of any car that can be made to drive like this. As I said, Rf2 can be broken in some ways, but I don't think people who are raising those questions (maybe like Ermin that has gone to ACC after having criticized the lumbering slides of that game) are taking into account that other games don't even get the on the limit behavior quite right to be honest.
Silverstone got rid of most of their bumpy parts when they resurfaced it. I have not driven it in real life since they did that, and I think it's pretty F1 pancake flat almost throughout now. Sebring, by comparison, is like flying through serious turbulence.
Re Ermin's newfound ACC joy, it's laughable how he omits the most glaring gripes that still exist in ACC. rF2 is simply amazing, despite its problems. It's interesting you show the 488 GT3 - I just drove it around Sebring and Spa this morning and the FFB through the wheel, the movement of the NLRv3 and the rumbles of the Buttkicker are so far above anything else. I then jumped in the Oreca 07 and put in 15 laps around Sebring against the AI, averaging over 125bpm on my Apple Watch. 0800 start time is just magic hour there. Hats off to S397.
Nieubermesch
Registered
Oh, you've driven there, but what car? Quite envy after reading your comment
.I can't quite get that kind of fidelity with my TS XW and not even a propper rig to mount it in, but I plan to change that, probably build myself a DIY rig and buy at least a butkicker! Probably will need to think about vibration dampening too for that project.
Yeah, he is knew to the hobby too.. I've also been jumping around a lot from a sim to another and finding the flaws... Well, it seems I really have landed now
.
MotherDawg
Registered
Oh well... this thread is for S397 to fix their exploits... their failings and to stop being led by their marketing department.
rFactor 2 Was not... the same market as consoles. If that's what S397 wants to work on... they bought the wrong Sim as the core of rFactor 2 users is the Hard Core Sim Racer. We don't do consoles. If the goal of S397 is to widen their market by filling it with candy (marketing heads) and forgetting the bad physics... not a problem... if you tell your installed base before that is.
"We are proud of what we have achieved with rFactor 2 in recent years, and these successes have led to the recognition from the sim racing industry that has made this new opportunity possible." -- Paul Jeffrey
SIR! Your users are not!
Message to Motorsport Games: Get the sim out of S397 hands... it's beginning to be an emergency. The actuall Sim code done by ISI is outside of their capability, they just don't know how to fix it.
"Would it be possible to implement a national flag to display the competitors country of origin in the standings results?" -- pab3183
"Certainly. At the moment the driver profile we store for everybody is..." Candy...
"A few blogs ago it was mentioned that the next big thing we will see are safety ratings." -- Stevy
"Our next big item on the list for development is definitely ratings." CANDY!
"Knowing there were talks about having permanent hot lap leaderboards," -- Remco Majoor
"Most likely those will be implemented as separate, long-running competitions with qualification sessions. I think we could start experimenting with those today." CANDY!!!
While people post clip running 2 seconds faster with next to zero camber at next to no tire pressure.À
Like he said... "Magnificent desolation!".
rFactor 2 Was not... the same market as consoles. If that's what S397 wants to work on... they bought the wrong Sim as the core of rFactor 2 users is the Hard Core Sim Racer. We don't do consoles. If the goal of S397 is to widen their market by filling it with candy (marketing heads) and forgetting the bad physics... not a problem... if you tell your installed base before that is.
"We are proud of what we have achieved with rFactor 2 in recent years, and these successes have led to the recognition from the sim racing industry that has made this new opportunity possible." -- Paul Jeffrey
SIR! Your users are not!
Message to Motorsport Games: Get the sim out of S397 hands... it's beginning to be an emergency. The actuall Sim code done by ISI is outside of their capability, they just don't know how to fix it.
"Would it be possible to implement a national flag to display the competitors country of origin in the standings results?" -- pab3183
"Certainly. At the moment the driver profile we store for everybody is..." Candy...
"A few blogs ago it was mentioned that the next big thing we will see are safety ratings." -- Stevy
"Our next big item on the list for development is definitely ratings." CANDY!
"Knowing there were talks about having permanent hot lap leaderboards," -- Remco Majoor
"Most likely those will be implemented as separate, long-running competitions with qualification sessions. I think we could start experimenting with those today." CANDY!!!
While people post clip running 2 seconds faster with next to zero camber at next to no tire pressure.À
Like he said... "Magnificent desolation!".
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Nieubermesch
Registered
I've just commented on Henri Sinik driving a BMW M2 CS doing a lap just 0,2 seconds behind the best lap on the track and one couldn't distinguish it from drifting a car.
It's true RF2 needs some revision, but lets wait and see. S397 never have been so commited as far as I've seen and they already mentioned they are studying the code. Let's wait for a littlw while and hopefully good things come to those who wait. In my mind they just need to make something about low tire pressures not be feaseable and carrying consequences. I believe they can do it and I think one of their physics guys came from ISI team. Can't remember the name now.
Nieubermesch
Registered
Just posting this to not just come out there as shill to RF2 and S397. I just see the value of their game and the potential it has. I also see what might possibly be wrong too and I sure don't like to see it, but it might not be as big as a deal breaker as people make it believe, depending on how one uses RF2.
Dirt Rally wasn't such a bad bad rally representation if one wasn't trying to do ludricous things. Then you look at world records and you see the most crazy stuff you've ever seen, of cuts (bad damage model). But DR definetly wasn't even nailing it really well even at more mundane driving situations.
MotherDawg
Registered
But diff
But it's 100% incorrect... not in the Sim... just your interpretation.
"more diff lock makes the car trace a tighter line when on throttle" To do that, you have to light up the rears... overpower the grip... then the rear will washout yes... but you're doing it all wrong. As you're spinning your tires, you are not transmitting the energy to the ground. It's transferring itself to heat... smoke... not kinetic.
When driving adequately, tires might be slipping but not sliding nor spinning. So when accelerating with lots of diff lock. The rears are welded together (spool), they want to track straight, not turn.
Reducing diff lock breaks the link between the two wheels so it's easier to rotate the car.
Proof in point, off throttle, high diff, the car barely rotates more. low diff, lots of rotation.
Diffs in rF1, 2 & AMS... top A1.
https://www.taylor-race.com/sites/default/files/DIFFERENTIAL ESSAY W PHOTOS2.pdf
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But "Preload" is the minimum lock at rest. When you're waiting through a corner... not accelerating, not decelerating. When shifting! Very important when that shift needs to happen during cornering. The car goes all askew on you, augment preload. The car just does not want to do what you want it to do... reduce preload. If the preload is already at the lowest... change hobby. ;p
HF
But it's 100% incorrect... not in the Sim... just your interpretation.
"more diff lock makes the car trace a tighter line when on throttle" To do that, you have to light up the rears... overpower the grip... then the rear will washout yes... but you're doing it all wrong. As you're spinning your tires, you are not transmitting the energy to the ground. It's transferring itself to heat... smoke... not kinetic.
When driving adequately, tires might be slipping but not sliding nor spinning. So when accelerating with lots of diff lock. The rears are welded together (spool), they want to track straight, not turn.
Reducing diff lock breaks the link between the two wheels so it's easier to rotate the car.
Proof in point, off throttle, high diff, the car barely rotates more. low diff, lots of rotation.
Diffs in rF1, 2 & AMS... top A1.
https://www.taylor-race.com/sites/default/files/DIFFERENTIAL ESSAY W PHOTOS2.pdf
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I think you are talking about Diff Lock under Power. Same as for Green Serpent, increasing Diff Lock increases understeer... until you overwhelm the grip and the rearend tell you to...efff out a here.
But "Preload" is the minimum lock at rest. When you're waiting through a corner... not accelerating, not decelerating. When shifting! Very important when that shift needs to happen during cornering. The car goes all askew on you, augment preload. The car just does not want to do what you want it to do... reduce preload. If the preload is already at the lowest... change hobby. ;p
HF
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Not going to name names but it's quite incredible that some people feel able to make statements about how the sim works and how it is wrong when they are 180 degrees away from the reality of how real cars work, let alone how the sim should work. If you haven't got a clue, listen don't speak....