Thank You 397 but could you fix whats broken first?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by MotherDawg, May 4, 2021.

  1. mesfigas

    mesfigas Registered

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    @Nieubermesch "abuse the steering angle and brute force the corners"
    a youtuber said that for iracing not ACC
     
  2. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    I definetly heard it about ACC and I myself have experienced it.
     
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  3. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    It tells little. Most cars depending on multiple variables should be capable to take on abusive steering angle and being forced like that through turns. It could be even used as a driving style, if you have oversteery car, you can diminish oversteer probability by forcing car into understeer. For this to tell something a problem has to be viewed in a very subtle manner, whats the car, whats the tire, whats the circumstances, how the understeer is induced, how much, and many other "hows and whats". This being said, the way simracing games developers understand what simacers wants, it is no wonder if the way they crafts their cars permits or even makes such driving styles preferable, it doesn't really matter that much which end slides, if tires permits it you'll be able either to brute force understeer everywhere or initial-D drift to best laptimes. It is just sweet tasty stuff, but too much sugar and carbohydrates can cause health issues.
     
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  4. mesfigas

    mesfigas Registered

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    @mantasisg
    @Nieubermesch
    i think fernando alonso used to use that trick in F1 cars back in 2006
    not sure if we speak the same thing
     
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  5. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    Sort of. It was already mentioned on other physics thread ;)
     
  6. davehenrie

    davehenrie Registered

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    Back in the days of Nascar Racing by Papyrus/Sierra(3,4 & 5) & GPL, I learned one could save a corner by cranking the wheel and slamming on the brakes. I never planned to race that way, but it became reflexive. That method was certainly not the fast way through a corner, but was faster than driving off into the weeds and slippy sliding around til you found pavement again. I find myself, to this day, occasionally repeating the procedure after entering a corner too hot. I guess this would be an exploit. I guess it appears to have been around for decades. I believe it works because you are combining extreme lateral and longitudinal grip calculations along with braking that explodes the traction envelope equations. Can't prove anything with telemetry, but I can certainly re-produce it.
    I'm sure there are many more holes in just about any physics engine. When you are developing code, you are working to reach a desired effect(grip thru a corner) but once you achieve that goal, you don't spend months researching how to break that solution, you move on to your next physics problem. A few dozen beta testers will never equal a host of users intent on finding any little crack in the system to exploit.
     
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  7. RusRob

    RusRob Registered

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    I have not been into rF2 for that long but have been in sim racing and development for many years (since Nascar Heat).

    First, since the tire pressure and castor angles have shown to be an exploit, Why can't someone create a plugin for on line racing that limits those adjustments? It seems it could be done within the "fixed setups" that some leagues use.

    On the bigger picture of fixing what is wrong with rF2.

    Having recently read:

    MOTORSPORT GAMES COMPLETES ACQUISITION OF STUDIO 397

    MIAMI, FL — May 5, 2021 — Motorsport Games Inc. (NASDAQ: MSGM) (“Motorsport Games”), a leading racing game developer, publisher and esports ecosystem provider of official motorsport racing series throughout the world, today announced that it closed at the end of April 2021 the previously announced acquisition of Studio 397, the company behind the industry leading racing simulation platform, rFactor 2. Studio 397 will maintain its brand and name while continuing to develop the rFactor 2 platform, as well as working on other Motorsport Games titles.

    Bla... Bla,,, Bla,,,,

    Studio 397 will also be central to the development of Motorsport Games’ forthcoming titles based upon licenses including the British Touring Car Championship and the 24 Hours of Le Mans..... Bla... Bla... Bla...


    It seems to me that this statement says it all... Studio 397 is moving on and rFactor2 will be put on the back burner.

    Please don't think I am dissing Studio 397, They are a business and they have to follow the money. Unfortunately fixing a major issue like physics is probably not in their best interest since it will not generate much as far as their bottom line goes. They will also be spread pretty thin working on other projects (BTCC and 24hr at Le Mans) which won't leave much for rF2.


    I personally am enjoying rF2 a lot (now that I got my FFB issues fixed) I also purchased AC so I have been comparing the two. rF2 has AC beat hands down as far as physics go but AC has rF beat with ease of use.

    I am not a league racer so the Exploits don't effect me much but it seems someone with a good grasp on writing plugins could fix that issue for leagues by just limiting the adjustments on tire pressure and camber angles.

    Again I am not a programmer so maybe that can't be done but it is an idea that would satisfy the people that feel rF2 is broken..

    Just food for thought...

    Cheers,
    Bob
     
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  8. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    While I also am cautious about Studio397 adquirement, I think you are missing the other side of the coin. Studio 397 will help but they will also be helped to develop RF2. It's a 2-way street. What concerns me more os probably that MG have other games that might conflict with RF2 cars and series additions and continued developement the most. Still, I prefer to lose some of those and seeing a better development in other more focused and complete package series, while trying to refine the physics and all aspects of RF2.
     
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  9. RusRob

    RusRob Registered

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    That may be true, however...

    We could be talking of rF3 or some other yet to be announced title.

    That would make more "business" sense wouldn't it? I am guessing most of the people that bought rF2 would gladly buy into a brand new sim if they knew rF2 was no longer being developed and something better was coming along.

    I knew before rF2 was released that they were planning on making modding more complex and it would be based on paid content so that is why I walked away.

    I think I was probably the exception in rF1 by walking away. But hey look... here I am back (and loving it).

    Cheers,
    Bob

    P.S. I have been around enough to know that when one company "acquires" another company it usually turns out to be much better for the one doing the acquiring...
     
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  10. lagg

    lagg Registered

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    MSG has aquired S397 to use their physics engine.
    Why are they going to harm S397 if they are useful for MSG?
     
  11. Sim_Player

    Sim_Player Registered

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    That is strange because in ACC i would not use such technique and i was definitely closer to acc alien than rf2 aliens.
    Plus the all the qualifying laps you see ACC V.S RF2 you can clearly see how much yaw friendly rf2 cars are. They look like gripper version of gravel rally driving.
    still like rf2 tho lol. It is just these small tweaks to tyres to make them properly punishing for overdriving will fix one of my biggest gripe.
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2021
  12. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    I hear you. I'm thinking that I've invested more them 100 euros on dlc alone, so the prospective of RF3 is somewhat of mixed for me :confused::D

    I am sceptical about the business side of things, but I am hoping it doesn't turn out bad. I don't really want to lose RF2 as my main sim and hopefully it only gets better, not worse. Hope Studio397 knew what they were doing when they agreed to this team up.
     
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  13. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    Well, so many company horror stories floating around... Many don't really care about the best interests of the studio, they just want profits. Happens all the time.
     
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  14. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    Yes, past a certain point Rf2 behavior gets quite manageable, but one can't forget when watching or playing oneself, that FFB can be turned down and drifting a car around on a sim that allows recovery over the limits can get quite messy (and Rf2 really has a lot of cars that seem too easy to control a slide in the way they are controlled; it's one of the things people forget, it's not only about if it can be recovered from a certain slide, but how is it saved from).

    I have to say that the yaw aspect of RF2 is much more realistic then ACC. Cars in ACC if you compare to onboard videos really seem to heavy and have some sort of understeer attached to them, not nimble enough, more like a SUV or something. Another thing is how suspension is moddelled. I really don't like what I see in ACC, because once again, it all seems to sluggish and maybe it is because of this aspect of weight/inertia/suspension reactions...

    It's not quite easy to pull apart what's really wrong with RF2 to a certain point, but there is. I personally think that some aspects that make the exploits possible is because of how much more dynamic the physics are, where ACC for example is too rigid and even if it doesn't suffer from the exploits RF2 do, it doesn't offer the more realistic driving base that RF2 offers. ACC over the limit can also be quite questionable to be honest.
     
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  15. lagg

    lagg Registered

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    If MSG have bought S397 to take profits now and they harm S397, they will loose the posibility to have future benefits, no?
     
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  16. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    I don't know, depends on what MGS thinks brings more profits. Even S397 might get on the bandwagon and prefer to make games that sell other than the hardcore simulation RF2 is. I am hoping money doesn't dictate everything and that they see the value that niche markets also offer, of course. And simracing is getting more traction so I hope we don't lose S397 and the capabilities of what the RF2 engine can offer.
     
  17. davehenrie

    davehenrie Registered

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    Not 'harm' rf2 so much as DELAY rF2. We all know the pace S397 proceeds at. Working on two other projects just seem to be asking for an even slower pace than we have seen so far.
     
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  18. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    That's true, but MGS might land a hand on other aspects too, lets not forget.
     
  19. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    Compare this and also look at a Rf2 video. In ACC (and I dont think it's quite setup dependent) there seems to be a cronic understeer to the handling and steering. It actually lacks yaw and it might be because of how it doesnt quite simulate the flexing on the contact patch that RF2 can actually do with it's physically based tyre model.

    One could say that one needs to be cleaner with ACC and have the car more on a straight and on rails path, but in reality cars actually yaw much more and don't have to become trully unstable because of that.

    Also, FOV is very important when comparing videos! Turning can look different FOV to FOV and this video actually might be a bad reference as it's higher than real life one.

    The type of torque that rotates the car acting on the contact patch is very important to realistic handling and RF2 model is probably the best one on the market doing that, with how many nodes it has.



    Look at this beauty! You can really feel the yaw and how many jabs he can get away with. It's pratically impossible to reach this in ACC, front tires just scrub.
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2021
  20. RusRob

    RusRob Registered

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    @lagg,
    Yes that is how business acquisitions go. I am sure they are doing what is their best interests however they said they are "Acquiring S397" not "Partnering with S397"

    That is a HUGE difference... If it was a Partnership that would mean "Equal" Acquiring means "OWN"

    Again, I am not dissing S397 or MSG, Its all business and what the community wants is not in the equation.

    Regardless, rF2 will be around for a long time even without support from S397 (I doubt they will abandon it any time soon).

    They don't support rF1 and I am still running it and still having fun. In some ways I like rF1 much better than rF2. It is simple, quick and the physics are still good even comparing with rF2. The eye candy isn't quite as nice but I race sims for the racing not the icing. ;)

    Cheers,
    Bob
     
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