Thank You 397 but could you fix whats broken first?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by MotherDawg, May 4, 2021.

  1. Sim_Player

    Sim_Player Registered

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    Yea it is quite opposite of rf2, plus setup stuff is quite questionable.
    It also has some AC like heavyness or understeer inbuilt behaviour.
     
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  2. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    Yeah, thats the core of it all. RF2 suffers from physics issues for sure in my opinion, but can I find anything that is better and more dynamic? I can't really, so I have to sing some praises to RF2 while I still can criticize it though. This decade I'm sure we'll see some great evolutions on simulation for sure.
     
  3. prceurope

    prceurope Registered

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    Nice drive! Is it just me or is the C8.R a very smooth ride compared to the other GTEs? I find that the RSR, the 488 and the Aston all feel like they are sprung tighter and on a track like Sebring it's hard to keep focus with a seat mover. But with the C8.R, it's so much smoother it feels almost like a road car with aero.
     
  4. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    Can't say for sure, but it's possible being down to setup and everything. Would have to really pay attention to what's doing what setup wise and the effect on the behavior... But thanks for that! ;)



    Take a look at 12:00 of this video and there are many instances reminiscent of RF2. Not sure, but it feels the suspension is stiffer than most cars are in RF2, but if you try to tighten them up, you get fast slides and fast turning, a very nimble car, where in ACC I can't really think of any car that can be made to drive like this. As I said, Rf2 can be broken in some ways, but I don't think people who are raising those questions (maybe like Ermin that has gone to ACC after having criticized the lumbering slides of that game) are taking into account that other games don't even get the on the limit behavior quite right to be honest.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2021
  5. prceurope

    prceurope Registered

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    Silverstone got rid of most of their bumpy parts when they resurfaced it. I have not driven it in real life since they did that, and I think it's pretty F1 pancake flat almost throughout now. Sebring, by comparison, is like flying through serious turbulence.

    Re Ermin's newfound ACC joy, it's laughable how he omits the most glaring gripes that still exist in ACC. rF2 is simply amazing, despite its problems. It's interesting you show the 488 GT3 - I just drove it around Sebring and Spa this morning and the FFB through the wheel, the movement of the NLRv3 and the rumbles of the Buttkicker are so far above anything else. I then jumped in the Oreca 07 and put in 15 laps around Sebring against the AI, averaging over 125bpm on my Apple Watch. 0800 start time is just magic hour there. Hats off to S397.
     
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  6. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    Oh, you've driven there, but what car? Quite envy after reading your comment :D:D.

    I can't quite get that kind of fidelity with my TS XW and not even a propper rig to mount it in, but I plan to change that, probably build myself a DIY rig and buy at least a butkicker! Probably will need to think about vibration dampening too for that project.

    Yeah, he is knew to the hobby too.. I've also been jumping around a lot from a sim to another and finding the flaws... Well, it seems I really have landed now ;).
     
  7. MotherDawg

    MotherDawg Registered

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    Oh well... this thread is for S397 to fix their exploits... their failings and to stop being led by their marketing department.

    rFactor 2 Was not... the same market as consoles. If that's what S397 wants to work on... they bought the wrong Sim as the core of rFactor 2 users is the Hard Core Sim Racer. We don't do consoles. If the goal of S397 is to widen their market by filling it with candy (marketing heads) and forgetting the bad physics... not a problem... if you tell your installed base before that is.

    "We are proud of what we have achieved with rFactor 2 in recent years, and these successes have led to the recognition from the sim racing industry that has made this new opportunity possible." -- Paul Jeffrey

    SIR! Your users are not!

    Message to Motorsport Games: Get the sim out of S397 hands... it's beginning to be an emergency. The actuall Sim code done by ISI is outside of their capability, they just don't know how to fix it.

    "Would it be possible to implement a national flag to display the competitors country of origin in the standings results?" -- pab3183
    "Certainly. At the moment the driver profile we store for everybody is..." Candy...

    "A few blogs ago it was mentioned that the next big thing we will see are safety ratings." -- Stevy
    "Our next big item on the list for development is definitely ratings." CANDY!

    "Knowing there were talks about having permanent hot lap leaderboards," -- Remco Majoor
    "Most likely those will be implemented as separate, long-running competitions with qualification sessions. I think we could start experimenting with those today." CANDY!!!

    While people post clip running 2 seconds faster with next to zero camber at next to no tire pressure.À

    Like he said... "Magnificent desolation!".
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2021
  8. EricW

    EricW Registered

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    Some of these candy features are maybe needed to pay for the physics development?
     
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  9. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    I've just commented on Henri Sinik driving a BMW M2 CS doing a lap just 0,2 seconds behind the best lap on the track and one couldn't distinguish it from drifting a car.

    It's true RF2 needs some revision, but lets wait and see. S397 never have been so commited as far as I've seen and they already mentioned they are studying the code. Let's wait for a littlw while and hopefully good things come to those who wait. In my mind they just need to make something about low tire pressures not be feaseable and carrying consequences. I believe they can do it and I think one of their physics guys came from ISI team. Can't remember the name now.
     
  10. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    Just posting this to not just come out there as shill to RF2 and S397. I just see the value of their game and the potential it has. I also see what might possibly be wrong too and I sure don't like to see it, but it might not be as big as a deal breaker as people make it believe, depending on how one uses RF2.

    Dirt Rally wasn't such a bad bad rally representation if one wasn't trying to do ludricous things. Then you look at world records and you see the most crazy stuff you've ever seen, of cuts (bad damage model). But DR definetly wasn't even nailing it really well even at more mundane driving situations.
     
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  11. MotherDawg

    MotherDawg Registered

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    But diff
    But it's 100% incorrect... not in the Sim... just your interpretation.

    "more diff lock makes the car trace a tighter line when on throttle" To do that, you have to light up the rears... overpower the grip... then the rear will washout yes... but you're doing it all wrong. As you're spinning your tires, you are not transmitting the energy to the ground. It's transferring itself to heat... smoke... not kinetic.

    When driving adequately, tires might be slipping but not sliding nor spinning. So when accelerating with lots of diff lock. The rears are welded together (spool), they want to track straight, not turn.
    Reducing diff lock breaks the link between the two wheels so it's easier to rotate the car.

    Proof in point, off throttle, high diff, the car barely rotates more. low diff, lots of rotation.

    Diffs in rF1, 2 & AMS... top A1.
    https://www.taylor-race.com/sites/default/files/DIFFERENTIAL ESSAY W PHOTOS2.pdf
    ---
    I think you are talking about Diff Lock under Power. Same as for Green Serpent, increasing Diff Lock increases understeer... until you overwhelm the grip and the rearend tell you to...efff out a here.

    But "Preload" is the minimum lock at rest. When you're waiting through a corner... not accelerating, not decelerating. When shifting! Very important when that shift needs to happen during cornering. The car goes all askew on you, augment preload. The car just does not want to do what you want it to do... reduce preload. If the preload is already at the lowest... change hobby. ;p

    HF
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2021
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  12. JamesB

    JamesB Registered

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    Not going to name names but it's quite incredible that some people feel able to make statements about how the sim works and how it is wrong when they are 180 degrees away from the reality of how real cars work, let alone how the sim should work. If you haven't got a clue, listen don't speak....
     
  13. green serpent

    green serpent Registered

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    Well, there is a lot of talk about mashing the throttle super early and turning the car on-throttle through the track out of a corner to gain lots of time (which all the aliens are doing). This is well established. Perhaps I could be wrong about the diff settings, but from my experience in the sim, flooring the throttle with a more open diff has the inside tires spinning and gobs of understeer, flooring the throttle with a more locked diff shoots you more towards the inside of the track. Probably just the way I'm driving/overdriving the thing.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2021
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  14. Nieubermesch

    Nieubermesch Registered

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    LSD's are just difficult to grasp if one doesn't really take the time to understand it.

     
    Last edited: May 11, 2021
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  15. prceurope

    prceurope Registered

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    For me, this whole discussion comes down to why you do sim racing in the first place. My personal view is very similar to that of Scott Mansell:



    Click here to go to the start time.

    "...for me that's the whole point of the sim...to replicate the real world and to build on my experience and practice for the real world."

    The main difference in this approach is that Scott knows what he's talking about and I'm a mere student of racing, and I don't have a track car that I can apply learnings in. My goal this year is to get back on track in a Ligier JS53 or Radical and I am using rF2 to help prepare. With a DD wheel and seat mover, it is actually possible to run sustained 130bpm on a bumpy, twisty track (I keep mentioning Sebring for that reason and I would love a proper Brands Hatch in rF2) and with a racing suit on, you can really build up a sweat that starts approaching real-world fatigue. I often find on track days that after 5 or 6 really nailed-on laps I get this sinking feeling in my stomach as I start to wonder how many more laps I can do before I'm unable to turn the wheel. That buzzy jelly-legs sugar high I feel after getting out of the car is what I'm after in a sim, and I have an HP Reverb G2 arriving this evening, so we'll see how that adds to it! :D I still haven't decided if I'm going to go full ridiculous and wear it over my balaclava :D

    Ha - I just have some nice friends. I had a GT3 RS (997 pre-facelift) at the time and I was getting passed by Minis and Caterhams (especially in braking zones - nothing prepares you for the initial shock of seeing a Caterham go by at full speed while you're half way through your braking). I've never had the time or money to get into racing (I'm not a fan of front wheel drive either), just track days and karting. If you're into speed, I highly recommend trying a shifter kart if you haven't already. They're too risky for me now and I bashed my ribs exceptionally well last time in a kart but they're the reason the open-cockpit Radical/Ligiers are so exciting to me.

    Good luck with the setup - there are many DIY rigs out there - it's all about doing it for the right reasons, IMHO. :)
     
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  16. EricW

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    If you do have a clue, and take the time to speak and choose to make a comment like this it's even worse imho..
     
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  17. Sim_Player

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    my experience with preload adjustments exclusively on throttle behaviour (GT3/E cars)->

    on lower preload on throttle the car pushes wide , towards outside of corner. So in a way you can be little bit more aggressive on throttle.
    (also the oversteer with lower preload hits later and is progressive)
    Now what is difficult to calculate is how much forward momentum i lost spinning the inside wheel.

    With higher preload on throttle i get the oversteer much earlier on exit phase, WHILE it does push little bit more on maintenance/low throttle (when you don't overcome traction with power) but after this small moment it gives up more "easily " to oversteer as you increase the throttle.
     
  18. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    Diff adjustments are usually progressive and almost always relative. An increase in diff lock (especially via preload, which is lower magnitude) will be a gradual process, it's not like you suddenly go to fully locked and drift at every opportunity. A little more locking will get a bit more rear-end action under power, less locking will spin the less loaded tyre more and leave the loaded one happier to accept the lateral load being presented - possibly exacerbating understeer. It's not all about locked vs open.

    In a different situation, more locking might give more understeer, less will allow more turn.

    Note: general comment. Not aimed at one person.
     
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  19. JamesB

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    If you don't know what you are talking about then you should find out before posting. This thread is meant to be about what IS wrong and might need fixing.
     
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  20. Lazza

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    I'd like to take your word on that, but I haven't seen a lot of proof of claims here. I'm inclined to try some tests when I get some time, but it's often not worth the effort - people tend to move the goalposts or come up with new claims as substitutes.
     
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