RFactor 2: Best overall physics in simracing... FR3.5: ATM, one of the worst sim-cars

I don't think anyone, let alone myself, was making claims that force feedback changes how cars behave in a sim. Such a claim would be ignorant to make.

What I said was that force feedback, if not set correctly, will have a great impact on how you perceive the way the car behaves. Wrong settings can lead to 'misunderstandings' between you and the car, where you don't get the right information at the right time, causing you to lose the car.

For example, in iRacing, at first I was sure that every car was horribly bugged and wrong, because I kept going off. I felt understeer where there should be none. I didn't feel when the rear was about to go on me. After taking the time to properly dial in the force feedback I realised that my old settings had fed me wrong information, leading me to believe that the cars were faulty.

Imo it takes a much more smooth driving style to get the 3.5 round a track in one piece. No pulling the wheel left and right in erratic fashion, no stabbing of the throttle and brake.

 

I won't say that RF2 physics are perfect, nor that all ISI cars are perfect, and I suspect that RF2 championships with modern OW are won with setups that wouldn't match at all real life setups.

A professional simulator uses several powerful computers to control a single car (no AI, bare minimum graphics), and is tuned constantly for a single car by a highly specialized team, having all the relevant telemetry information. And drivers still say the sim doesn't match the real car but is neverthless useful for training with procedures, learning tracks, and training.

RF2 is a game (genre sim), only a computer game, a 45 $ one, with the same engine, on a single computer, it tries to simulate from go karts, quads, modern OW, historic cars, RC, and is expected to run also simultaneously a fleet of 30 AI cars.

And it's tire model is still in WIP.

Simply I don't expect more from RF2 than what it can reasonably give.

If the cars weren't a bit delicate to drive at the limit, OW races would be won in drift style as you know it happened to another sim.

I don't drive the FR 3.5 2014 because I feel I am unable to setup a high down force car without Motec (unable to control it's dynamic ride height), and then a sudden loss of down force could be explained by to many factors (diffuser stall by riding to low, lack of down force by riding to high, to much packers, incorrect rake, excessive yaw or roll, etc.).

You can setup it correctly by pure feeling, congratulations, I can't, so I can say nothing about it's behaviour on track when pushed beyond it's limits. As I said before, I was given a good setup at RaceDeparment, I tried it, the car was fast, and felt easy to drive compared to let's say a FISI.

But please, I have driven the new Skippy, and it is difficult to find a more forgiving car, the car can take a lot of abuse before swapping ends.

Those are my opinions, I understand and respect that other persons may feel and think differently.

Cheers.

 

Focus on how slow I am going when the tires start skidding.
This isn't like rushing into a corner and unloading the suspension and having the car swap ends.
I am deliberately 'putting along' all the way...no real speed and basically coasting...yet the tires are skidding on dry pavement.
Do you drive a decent road car?
Tell me if you can get that to happen in the dry in your car.
Seriously....go try it.
I have driven laps in a Formula Ford....Driven the Chevron B16 at speed, tracked the Twin turbo 993 on numerous occasions, still actively Kart on a semi-regular basis.
Racing is not 'new' to me.
If you have a Skippy (doing on a real track), what it's doing in my demonstration video...you need to park it, walk back to the office and ask for a refund of your driving school tuition.
It that simple.
You could do better in your own car.

 

I guess our real-life experience, and about 5 BILLION real-life videos showing how car physics work isn't enough for some people.

Such blindness because people are automatically partial to something they like and therefore naturally want to defend it. It's just humans stereotypically acting like humans, I guess

First it was "Let's blame it on someone who can't drive" (even though the issues have NOTHING to do with driver technique, but rather, the WAY the car behaves REGARDLESS of how good/bad the technique/inputs may be). Then "was that even the ISI version of the FR3.5?"? Then "well what about your Real Road settings?". Then "You use weird FFB". Now it's "well it's just one opinion VS another's" - no, sorry, it's not. You can clearly see how messed-up the vehicle behavior is in-game relative to the way real-life vehicles behave when they are pushed to and over their limits. Watch even 1 real-life race video and this should be extremely obvious.

It's honestly ridiculous how so many people are here to pretty much just "blow smoke" in defense of their beloved video game (RF2 is my favorite sim, so please don't label me as some "troll" or "hater").

[HR][/HR]

Speaking specifically about your RF2 Skippy video...

If a car is, let's say, only using 50% of the tyres limit of grip, then it has a lot more grip left (50%). You were not pushing and asking much of the tyres in ANYWAY in that video. You were not asking much from the tyres in terms of longitudinal grip (braking or accelerating) or lateral grip (turning). When the tyres ARE NOT close to their limits, then abrupt inputs should not be so overly exaggerated. If this was the case, then every person that goes to Skip Barber, and such, racing schools will be spinning out almost every corner on every lap with thousands upon thousands of dollars of damage every day. And I have worked at an F2000 school for almost a full year, people aren't spinning at the slightest lift IF THEY ARE NOT ANYWHERE NEAR THE TYRE's LIMITS WHEN THE ABRUPT/INCORRECT INPUT OCCURS (throttle lift, application, steering input, whatever it may be).

Once some of the guys with more bravery than skill/experience start pushing the cars, THEN you find them spinning off. BUT, a guy just "babying" the car around SHOULD NOT be getting into those same situations just because he lifted or did some sudden steering inputs BECAUSE THE TYRES HAVE SO MUCH GRIP STILL LEFT IN RESERVE BECAUSE THE DRIVER WAS NOWHERE EVEN NEAR BEING CLOSE TO PUSHING THE CAR"

If I tap you with my finger, are you going to fall over? Of course not! However, if you're already leaning over heavily, then all it may take is a small or even tiny tap from me to tip you over. SAME THING WITH TYRES/VEHICLE DYNAMICS.

People read too many books here talking about sooth driving and proper techniques and don't understand that this is in order to drive close to, or at, the tyres' grip limits, NOT WHILE YOU ARE WELL BELOW THE TYRE'S GRIP LIMIT, OR ELSE EVERY PERSON WOULD BE SPINNING ON EVERY CORNER.

Let me quote something for everyone rather than relying on people watching and understand the millions upon millions of real-life videos out there - and just how different those videos are to the game - which clearly isn't working for many people.


"Remember, if you're driving at only 50% of the car's potential, you'll be able to get away with changing gear roughly and braking, accelerating and steering aggressively.But when you're driving near your car's limits these actions can lead to loss of traction, poor track times and increased risk of an accident..." source --> http://www.drivingfast.net/car-control/smooth-driving.htm#g

Some people seem to be misunderstanding those sort of technique-descriptions, and twist them into...

"Remember, if you're driving at only 50% of the car's potential, the car should still try to kill you, or at least start sliding around, at the absolute slightest hint of un-smooth/imperfect inputs, even though you weren't anywhere near the tyre's limits."

OR...

"Although the tyre's amount of grip is hardly being used-up laterally or longitudinally, they should still magically use up 100% of their grip-limits the instant you apply any sort of aggressive/imperfect input"

People twisting those sort of technique descriptions around so much are in complete "wonderland", and just "spitting out" and twisting around what they read in order to defend the game's issues, or just don't really know what they're talking about.

 

Spinelli, I suppose you know that writting in bold letters in a post is the equivalent of shouting at someone, I don't think it makes your ideas more valuable.

I think we have all understood your point of view.

We are many here, we have different views on the same facts(?), I think this diversity is interesting.

I would avoid writing "People twisting those sort of technique descriptions around so much are in complete "wonderland", and just "spitting out" and twisting around what they read in order to defend the game's issues, or just don't really know what they're talking about.", but it's just my view.


In my case after driving the new Skippy, I thought the car would be murdered by critics for being to easy to drive.

I used a former version setup for regional, and tweaked a little my setup for national (softened rear ARB), the car having more front grip bias than regional (in my view). Could blast both version around Limerock without fear of spinning or having a strange reaction from the car.

Cheers.

 

I suggest you take a look at what your speed was. Exactly, in numbers.

I saw a Fiat Punto doing a 90 degree spin while driving well under 50 km/h It happened during driving lessons in the middle of my city, so they had to obey traffic rules and weren't probably anywhere near 50 km/h. Especially that a scared girl was driving it - probably one of her first lessons Oh, and it was a straight road in a good condition. The day was sunny and clear.

Perhaps she was an alien and the car was in fact from another planet...

These things do happen. We don't feel the speed nor acceleration in the sim. Otherwise we would have better sense of what's happening and better awareness of what may happen in a moment.
Unfortunately we don't have these sensations in a sim, so instead of feelings, we have to respect... numbers. That's why I asked you to check your speed.

 

Almost 180º avoiding a dog at 80km/h... my aunt in a Fiat Coupe.

50% throttle is not de same as 50% car limit, never. The limit is in the tyre load and lateral forces, wrong balance and you are done even at lowest speeds.

I'm still thinking the main problem at low speeds (and high too) in most sims are more related to the lack of feeling, I do not suffer It because I'm used to drive with no feel, but lot of people complain about controll loss and is just a totally wrong perception of what is happening with the car, totally wrong balance at any speed. A MoTeC log would be optimal to discuss all this kind of things.

 

Yup, which is why a bunch of actual data from the engine would be nice to see. Not feelings. Not video interpretations. Nothing like that. Actual readings of some kind that can be looked at and then analysed. A g meter, and idea of what the engine is outputting and where, loads on the tyres, etc.

And the speed thing, people should do that more often. It's not often, infact probably never that I look at my speedo when racing. It means nothing to me, revs, gear, that sort of thing can come in handy. When you realise how fast some of these cars are piling the speed on or taking it off or when you think you are just cruising through a corner...it's quite staggering.
Anyway, why am I still here XD

 

While this thread is somewhat interesting, I'm finding the aggressive crusade-like tone less than appealing. While I'm sure that the car isn't 100 percent true to its real life counterpart, like is the case with all sim cars, I seriously doubt that it's even half as messed up as the OP makes it out to be. Just my opinion.

Edit: I just realized that my post was way too "soft".

IMHO the car in question definitely isn't even half as messed up as the OP makes it out to be.
I don't see the point in making it your mission to convince people that this car is borderline useless.

I totally get the "let's try to make ISI improve the car even more" aspect of critiquing content - that is very important.
This thread however goes way beyond that, IMHO.

 

Spinelli have you tried the Mak Corp formula 3 mod? The difference between the ISI RF3.5 and that one is night and day with Mak Corp being muuuuchhh easier to drive. I've never raced but in my mind the grip of the tyres of Mak Corp feel much more realistic. Personally I dont even touch the 3.5 anymore.

 

Just some thought, I've driven FR3.5 2014 on different tracks and it seems most of my spins come from tracks with sudden elevation changes. For example Estoril Turn 3 (uphill braking), the car tends to spin on entry each time, so much that our league has to probably switch track due to this.

Maybe something with default suspension that reacts too violent to elevation changes. There is also camber change in Hockenheim stadium turn where most Spinelli's video clips are from.

 

ssshhhh don't dare mention it could be something other than the "atrocious" physics, have you not seen the Rants Spinelli goes into when people suggest otherwise!?

 

Indeed a intresting car balance for a training scool car which loose adhesion on the rear once you start to steer while the front is one with the surface. I see the same behaviour on any vid of Tim as he was correcting the car all the time, because of something distorted the tracking. And you even have some rubber on the track and maybe some temp on the tires.

Now who is of a different opinion ( what is ok ) try the car and steer left and right, maybe on straight in the cold phase, and as addition use a green track. If you wan't see or understand why i'm saying test it in cold phase, than i really can't help anymore.

The cold phase should show well that there seems something not optimal balanced. What you should feel is the much greater mechanical grip of the frond end, and i think when the car starts with a imbalance in mechanical grip, it can't be better with temp. I think that it drags this imbalance over the whole grip bandwidth and tire life time. It just is not as obvious with temp and track rubber, but is still there, just not as much odd as it is in the cold phase where it shows a extrem difference in adhesions limit and mechanical grip to me.

Try it and i'm curious how you like to justify such a behaviour with a more racing car than any street car, where as i said already no such a extrem behaviour is presented, unless it is damaged and the geometry is warped, causing the bad tracking.

In my opinion it is more or less a simple balance and tire patch thing.

 

If the car has massive physics issues with the way it behaves upon many instances of grip-loss / slips / slides, then - yes - a poorly designed, or very tricky, track surface will naturally make the car trickier to drive and easier to slide, which then just makes the physics issues even more apparent. The poor/tricky road surface will showcase the physics flaws even more obviosuly since the track-surface design is putting the car in those situations more easily than normal.

With regards to the OP (a mix of specific-car physics issues and overall engine physics issues):

It's not the fact the car spins or slides - be it bad or perfect driver input, camber on the road, bad or perfect physics (before the slide occured), a ton of rubber (which there was) or little rubber, brand new tyres or tyres with 10 laps on them, or whatever reason...The issues lie in the way (key words being "the way") the cars rotate, the way the tyres slip, the way they re-grip, the motion-direction of the car in relation to the slip angle, the motion-direction of the car in relation to the rear-end swinging around, etc. etc. etc. etc.

Again, it has nothing to do with the original fact that grip was lost, it's the behviour once the grip is lost (regardless of why the grip was lost) which is off in multiple ways. To re-iterate one more time (sorry to keep repeating): the issues lie in the way those slides happen - not why they happened in the first place.

 

Ofc it is as i agreed with already that at least what am i are talking about is not about why, but the how wouldn't be there without the why, and because of this fact i do try to understand what is going on with the car, and there is nothing better than to start in the cold phase where it already shows well the base cold grip balance, which is the mechanical grip, the seems to me as if it is out of balance, no matter the exact reason which i can't know. So i'm not going to say there is something wrong with the physics, because this behaviour can simply genrated by an imbalance in the grip levels or an imbalance in weight distribution, or even an geometry bug or whatever, but what i'm almost sure of is that it is neither believable nor very realistic for me.

edit: oh, i tought you meant me, but i see you edited your post.

 

I remember when Spinelli used to praise rF2 for it's physics and how you could "dance" the cars on the limit. As Lazza said so well, you can easily convince yourself that something is wrong or right.

This is how I look at sims. They are not real life and they never will be. They will never have feel which is the number one most important part to real life driving. Without feel you will never have something that "feels" real. It just isn't possible. So the way I look at sims is we find the sim that reacts to our inputs the closes to how they should in real life and then learn how to drive the car as fast as possible even if I am working around the flaws of the car or the physics engine. This is EXACTLY what you do in real life too. You don't jump into a spec Miata and say, oh man this car needs different suspension geometry, I'm just not going to race it anymore. No, you learn how to drive around what ever flaws you think it has and know that everyone else in the field is also learning how to drive it at 100%. All this talk you see all the time about easy = real. Lets just say easy does equal real. Who the hell wants to drive a car that is easy to drive? Where is the challenge. Like I said, I just have come to the realization that sim racing will never fully equal real life but I still have a ton of fun with it. I race in leagues and compete which is really what racing is all about isn't it? If I want to do real racing I go to the real track.

As for that skippy video. How can anyone say for sure how loaded the tires were? I personally felt he was going just as fast as the the skippy in the instruction video. But lets just say the tires really were only at 50%. That still doesn't mean it won't loop if you go from 50% throttle (which is a fair bit of throttle, enough to have the weight on the rears) to 0% instantaneously. Especially in a trainer car that was intentionally designed to drive like a boat with tons of weight transfer and skinny DOT tires. They aren't even DOT-Rs. My daily driver has better rubber then the skippys use.

I am not trying to take away from Spinelli's OP though. I don't have much of an opinion on the OP. I don't have much time at all in that car so I will not comment on that other then I disagree that tires will not spool up when they break lose and you continue to give them WOT.

 

Having actually spun a Skip Barber, I can tell you first hand it doesn't take much. The instructor said he heard me release then reapply the throttle, that is all it took.

Having actually stopped a Skip Barber car from spinning once it was going as well, I can tell you it takes some pretty quick reactions.

Why people are comparing Alonso - who probably has better control of a car than those you're responding to - in an F1 car, with wildly different cars, I have no idea. It just looks silly doing it.

 

Also, I saw people questioning if this was the ISI version of the FR3.5. I see you're using the FFSCA version. Why are you so aggressive when people ask if it's modified? It's a perfectly valid question.

 

I'll believe you that it tends to such a behaviour more than any other car, but it seems a bit to sensible at all, and all i can say an see is the extrem difference in the cold phase, which really seems a bit to extrem in mechanical grip to me ( what i think is more or less presented on the other cars as well ), and i think that is all what it is about, the balance, but ofc i could be wrong, but than i really would wonder that such a car is in use as a training scool car, because it wouldn't be very safe, the more it shows a kind of damaged car behaviour with such an extrem and sensible tracking behaviour imho.

If i was the driver or the mechanic, i really would like to check the susspension geometry setup and overall setup, to eliminate this distorted tracking behaviour as good as possible. It would be a kind of car the needs to be fixed and i'm saying this seriously, this would be what i would think if i was involved into this cars technic team, but if you say this is normal than i like to leave it in the garage for others who like to ride into the death.

 

If you were using it as a race car I would agree. But it is a trainer car designed to teach proper technique. Fixing this bad behaviour would totally defeat the purpose of this car. I think it is great that ISI bought this car to rF2. If people can master this car then they should be able to drive anything. Especially the version with DOT tires.