RFactor 2: Best overall physics in simracing... FR3.5: ATM, one of the worst sim-cars

Except AFAIK you wouldn't be allowed to modify the setup enough to eradicate the behavior and still race in any of the SB2000 series'.

 

Knowing the cornering G. And looking at the video, he is very far from the car's cornering abilities. I'm totally with Spinelli and Saabjock here. One thing is how the car behaves while being pushing close to the limit, and another thing when it is driven way below that limit. Basically because it's what determines weight transfer (driving wise)...

 

Hmmm....., i see what you two mean, but i think it is more the result of the given data, the may replicates the general driving behaviour of this car with a more pro setup, not exactly what a trainee would need, and I agree that it may is partly possible to generate a similar driving behaviour with this car by the setup, but it seems a bit exaggerated to me, and i really like to know the engineer in real explaining me how he did it, that there is such an extrem difference in mechanical grip in the cold phase with little to no G's, because of the extrem instability of the rear, while the front is biting. I'm of the opinion that it shouldn't be that extrem and that is rather more out of balance as the exact replica of the car, at least in the cold phase.

I'll believe that the general caracter of the car is somewhat similar but what i'm experiencing in the cold phase is really unbelievable for me and would be categorized as damaged or out of balance, because the behaviour in the cold phase is extremly deadly.

 

Did I miss something... where is the G meter in that video?

 

I still do praise RF2's physics. They are overall number 1, by far. However, some things are still off after years, and the weird "original-direction-of-car-motion-ending-too-quickly-and-transferring-into-the-direction-the-front-end-points-too-when-the-rear-steps-out" issue has been an issue buried in the engine since at least F1 2002. I can literally see it within 2 seconds of any video of any car racecar, roadcar, new, old, soft, stiff, fast, slow, and from trackside / TV cams. I see it in absolutely every video of everycar every when they have some sort of sideways moment regardless of how well they may have saved or not saved the slide. This is specifcally "Point 1" in my OP, I'm not saying that all issues with the FR3.5 are an overall issue going back years, but "Point 1" definitely is.

I have mentioned it other times but never made a huge deal about it. I have seen quite a few others mentioning it back in the day when older ISI-engine based sims were compared to Live for Speed, and even in RF2's early days when people were comparing it to NK Pro. I have seen people in many forums post about this over the past 10 years.

You're seriously trolling with posts like that. Watch the videos. "WOT"? You need glasses. Maybe 10% of my examples where at WOT, not only that, but probably 75% of my examples were hardly - if at all - even over 50% throttle. People wonder why some of my replies are aggressive? Well just look at Noel's complete and utter B.S. comment.

And also, if a car's tyres are already using up most of the grip they are capable of, then you can get a slide at even, for eg. 25% throttle, of course I know this. A tyre can only provide so much grip, and if you're already using most of that up before you even begin to add throttle then of course you won't have much grip left in reserve for adding throttle, and therefore even small amounts can induce sliding. That is all beginner racing basics 101 that I knew within the first 3 months of getting into real racing (let alone simracing) 10 years ago.

Try watching my second video, and try reading some of my posts and explanations. Honestly, you're acting like a borderline troll who comes in here just to "throw gas in the fire". I not only made a new post with big, colourful writing, but also updated the OP. I explained the car. Watch the video, read the descriptions. And try to at least read half of what I say.

Speaking now specifically about the Skippy (this thread is getting into a lot of different very specific physics issues), yes, you're exactly right. The Skippy's are properly modelled in their basic characterisitics (very sensitive and exaggerating lift-off oversteer, etc.) however, that behaviour comes into play much, much too early relative to how much/little you're pushing the tyre before it happens.

I worked at an F2000 school for a year. Once you are starting to push then they are very sensitive and setup overly sensitive in order to teach people about control. However - say for example you are at the school as part of a company who is bringing their employess to the school for a gift or whatever (extreme example but very, very common) - most of those guys don't push the cars, some literally baby them to the point it's ridiculous even relative to how new and inexperienced they are. Well, those guys are doing terrible throttle-lifts almost every corner, and they aren't spinning or sliding 12 times per lap on every throttle-lift moment, because they are well below the car's/tyre's capabilities when they apply those bad inputs/techniques. A lot of those guys are completly clueless (despite what the instuctors explained to them in the classroom before hand) and they are taking terrible lines, lifting 100% at wrong times, doing terrible rev-matching (downshifts), etc. but because they are driving well under the car/tyre's limitations, they get away with it much, much more often than not.

Then, you have the guys who have more bravery - and often more bravery than skill - and really carrying much more speed and pushing the tyres. They then spin/understeer, whatever, because cars are sensitive when near the limit, racecars more, and school-type racecars (eg. Skippy) even more so. However, the people who drive the car well below it's limits don't just start sliding and spinning because they used improper technique, if that was the case, the practice/school sessions would literally not be able to even run in the first place because you would literally have constant spins - multiple spins per minute delaying the day's work and pretty much not even allowing the school sessions to be run.

source --> http://www.drivingfast.net/car-control/smooth-driving.htm#g
NOT "Anytime you make an agressive/improper input, a car will instantly go into sliding mode (either front or rear) even if you are hardly using up the tyre's grip and therefore have tons left in reserve" - if that was the case, everyone getting into a real-life skippy would be spinning literally more times than laps completed.

You need a G meter to be able to tell that he wasn't even close to being anywhere near any sort of lateral or longitudional tyre limits in that video? I'm startng to think you have absolutely no concept of anything to do with driving racing cars. That video is ridiculous. Hardly any braking, hardly any sliding, hardly any steering input, hardly any throttle, hardly anything; the car was no where near tyre lateral or longitudional grip limits, it was being drivin slower than a brand new customer would drive a school car on their first ever lap (ok, maybe exagerating, but you get the point).

 

I don't know if Spinelli is right or if the game is perfect or not but for sure I know I'm not deaf nor blind.

 

I know I won't change anybody's mind around here but here's some food for thought for some. I very much doubt this guy is going anywhere near the limit. Youtube is full of amateurs spinning in formula skip barber cars. In Saabjocks video he doesn't even try to save it until his rotation is way too late. Anyway, anybody watch the superbowl? What a game!!!

 

Tires generate grip thanks to the weight applied and the car's weight moves around due to inertia.
100 % grip is generated when you reach the correct temperature, slip angle, and specific load conditions the tires are designed for.

It seems reasonable to think that if you give the car the wrong inputs, hence the wrong weight balance for that precise moment, that it will go out badly and be impossible to catch, evenmore on a training car.
Training car that is designed to teach the proper techniques to driver faster open wheel cars...

 

No it will not change anything.

Also, FYI, F2000 <> SB2000. Not even even the slightest bit close.

 

For the videos, this one :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tk9qGJ6MxB4

How come the guy before him, at sensibly the same speed got round fine ?

 

They are way too passive in the corners.
Here another driver (the blue car) sliding at 45mph:
http://youtu.be/v81TnyKFuWY

 

Because he was on a different physics engine probably.

 

First, the point of Saabjocks's video wasn't on how easy or difficult it is to save the slide, that's not the problem. Wrong convo my friend.

Regarding the two posted real-life Skippy videos

You can tell, while not setting lap records, they are still definitely bringing the car to respectable levels in terms of limits. They are hard on the throttle up throughout the entire straightway. The are approaching at relatively high speeds. The corner-entry speeds are respectably high. They are turning the wheel and directing the car's direction. They are not babying the car on a warm up lap 30 seconds off the pace. I am not surprised at all that he is in a zone where the car is sensitive to inputs, especially being a "school-type" F2000 like the SB is. These spins have nothing to do with the RF2 spins and general loss of grip me and others are talking about. Completely different scenarios. Light years apart. Those in the video are fine, and RF2 does those ones just fine as well.


P.S. Thank you for posting those videos, it shows even further what I'm saying regarding my "Point 1":

If that was an RF2 car (any car) the car's direction of motion towards the outside of the turn would have almost stopped while the direction of motion would have transferred to where the front-end was point towards, however, in real-life it's a completely different story; much, much more of the cars original direction of travel continues in the original direction it was heading before the spin occurred. The car therefore continues-on in the original direction - towards to outside of the turn - while the rear-end swings around. Cars in RF2 would have more of the cars overall direction of motion change and shoot the car into the inside of the track as if you had massive front grip and starting turning the car, yourself, to the right to the inside of the track. The way the real-life rotation vehicle momentum works is light years away from the game. Again, this issue goes back to at least F1 2002 and is a game engine issue rather than vehicle specific.

I get the impression you have no clue about anything regarding vehicle dynamics. I've already explained many things to you without replies other than trolling comments. Use your eyes and read above. The cars are being pushed, it's visibly easy-as-pie to see if you have absolutely any perception at all about racing. Meanwhile the RF2 SB video posted previously was ludicrous.

 

Actually, this kind of behavior is not unusual for slow speed oversteers

Check this clip Yes, I know - wet conditions, street car, etc. But it's not my point to compare or study anything. I'm not even making a reference to any material posted here.
I only want to make general, out of context observation: if that would happen in a sim, we would probably hear a lot of complains
Not because it's wrong, but because in a sim we don't experience things differently and therefore we perceive and judge them differently. It's difficult to learn certain perspective on behavior of simulated cars. Of course they're far from perfect, but some behaviors that seem completely wrong at first glance may actually not be far off from the real thing.

Enjoy this little clip - the car just drove off the road

 

I wasn't trying to save the car.
It was a demonstration to point out the issue.
The car is driveable...even on cold tires.
It just needs to be managed more than it should because of it.

 

It really depends on what caused the spin. Lift oversteer generally sends you off the inside of the track. Power oversteer generally sends you off the outside. There are a gazillion variables. In Saabjock's video he wasn't pushing that hard so when he lifted it lost the rear but the front was nowhere near the limit so it had plenty of traction to drive the car off the inside of the track. Just like in the skip instruction video I linked to. You can't look at a video with no data and/or know the drivers inputs and know exactly what is going on. All I know is I could make a video just like Saabjock's, going the same speed around the same turn with the same setup and get around it just fine, or if I wanted to make an example like he did I could do that too. It would be one thing if it was impossible to go around a turn at 30mph without spinning.

Edit: Also at low speed the car is going to scrub a lot of speed when it starts to slide and then it will regain grip and go off the inside. Spinelli... come on.. you know this stuff.

 

Actually...lol....

If you observe the slide, you'll see the original direction mostly continuing on, and only after the car re-griped from the tyres biting (around the 4.5 second mark) did the car then head towards the direction the front was pointing to. Thank you for more proof of how wrong the game is relative to real-life.

The fact that you posted a clip showing what I'm explaining as a way to try and prove me wrong really says a lot. I mean can't you notice the difference between the slide, and the 2nd part where the car grips and only then heads towards where the front is pointing to? It's pretty obvious to see. It seems I have to analyze and pick apart these videos for most people, but some are able to understand.

This post is just off on so many levels I don't even know where to begin, wow. Seriously, almost every sentence in this post should just be erased, it's like borderline misinformation propaganda, lol.

 

Perfectly sums up how I feel about it.

Being a racer, be that virtual or real life, you have to adapt to what you have at your disposal.
That's the challenge, and the fun, for that matter.

I never ditch or diss a car because I think the developers have messed it up somehow.

I always look at what I can am doing in the car - what I'm doing to make it behave badly.
There's almost always an explanation... I brake too late. Carry too much speed. I'm too erratic with the wheel. Too harsh on the brakes.
I pay attention to what the force feedback is telling me. Most cases, if the wheel feels weird or "bad" it's because I'm doing something wrong.
I adapt, and by adapting I'm learning AND having so much fun.

I wouldn't bother with sim racing at all if I, every time I spun off, immediately was convinced the devs had done a bad job.
I would be impossible to race anything, and it would be impossible to learn anything as well. No fun at all.

Like that whole F2 controversy... Don't even get me started on that.
So many people thought that ISI had made a mess of that car, simply because they weren't able to adapt and accept that that was how the car felt in rF2.
I'm not saying that it feels like its real life counterpart. How would I know? But how would you know either?
Just race the damn thing and have some fun instead of obsessing over every little detail that doesn't come to your liking.

 

He is joking about you and it is as ever, the ones who don't understand that everything is fine and that it is just up to you, and the others who are simply ignorant and resistant against all odds.

Do you really wonder why they are less and the rooms are empty, me not really.

 

Dude that car is on a wet road, the tires don't stand a chance of changing the direction of that car until it is almost completely stopped.

Hardly misinformation at all. Your really starting to frighten me because in the past it seemed like you were well educated. It's as if someone took over your account and is posting nonsense. That or you haven't been on a real track in so long that you're starting to loose touch.

Oh.. I need to add the condescending lol on the end. There.. complete.