RFactor 2: Best overall physics in simracing... FR3.5: ATM, one of the worst sim-cars

A. The pedal plugin - I'm pretty sure - goes by in-game throttle percent not by the physical position of my throttle. If my in-game throttle is registered as 25%, I'm pretty sure it will show up as 25% according to the pedal plugin. On top of that, it doesn't matter anyways; I have the linearity set to 25% but I have also used 100% - same result, and it OF COURSE will be the same result because it has NOTHING to do with the fact that the car slides, it's not the fact that I lost grip that's the problem, it's the way the physics behave during grip loss. Control settings don't magically change a physics engine.

B. I'd appreciate it if you don't twist things around; I am not always applying even more throttle, in some incidents I do in order to test the physics reaction from adding a bit more weight to the rear, or just to see what happens if you get the throttle at a very low and neutral constant level and only use a lot and very quick amount of steering correction (both of which clearly have no affect), but I'm not always doing that. Also, again, it's the way the physics are behaving, not the fact that there was some grip loss to begin with.

Regarding my very first video:

- 1st incident - I am applying little throttle, the car all of a sudden just goes,
- 2nd spin - I go from around 25% to lets say 30% or so, that 5% difference shouldn't just make your revs skyrocket and put you in an instant death spin, not to mention I was correcting very quickly and with a lot of lock but it is absolutely hopeless
- spin @ 1:43 - I apply more throttle, everything is fine, then just death-spin almost instantly. I also lifted the throttle as soon as the slip occurred in-case you again couldn't see that, Noel.
- spin @ 1:55 - again, I add about 25%, maybe a bit more, throttle. Keep it fairly neutral, no problem, as soon as I touch the inside curb an atomic bomb goes off and the revs/rear-tyres skyrocket up and insta-spin physics freak-out. Again, Noel, try watching the video, you'll see I lifted yet again
- final spin - Again, very little throttle, what - 25% or so? A little more? Also, yes, I don't lift fully at the moment of wheel spin this time, but I still lifted a bit (don't forget, I obviously am always correcting with the steering A LOT and QUICKLY in EVERY SINGLE one of those incidents). Yet again, the revs/rear-tyres, out of seemingly absolutely nowhere just speed up wayyyy too quickly and suddenly. It's as if I just added a boatload of throttle and torque to the car, as if I just instantly jumped from 25-ish % throttle, to like 75% or 100%. It's ridiculous.

Watch the whole clip before coming on here and blaming entire and obvious messed-up physics issues to simply driving technique. Also, again, I'm not arguing about the fact that these slides occurred - maybe they should have, maybe they shouldn't have, that's almost impossible to know - however, the way in-which the physics behave once any sort of slip occurs is CLEARLY messed-up.

[HR][/HR]
NEW VIDEO (OP updated)

Again, I will quote what kamikaze has already stated:

ISI 2014 FR3.5 v1.1 - medium downforce package

- Please, pause the video for each description and try to actually fully read and understand each description. REMEMBER, the fact that the car lost some grip isn't always the problem, it's the behavior of the physics once even the slightest amount of grip is lost that is the problem.

- preferably watch @ 60fps (may have to open/view video right from the youtube site in order to get the 60 fps option - just click the title of the video to do so)

 

How long have you been dring the FR? I know you have real word experience in what the skippy right? Have you mostly spent your time in the skippy in the sim? With lack of physical gforces on your body the high DF cars with extreme grip will be the ones that relate the least to real world. This is exactly why I tend to stay away from open wheel cars. I just can't relate any real experiences to them.

Anyways, relax man. No one is trying to twist things. No one is out to get you or say you are wrong. I simply pointed out that you said the pedal plugin showed you giving more throttle although you say you didn't. But the fact is the pedal plugin is showing what your foot is doing. Yes it is not the physical position. It doesn't account for the linearity of your controller settings. But still, if it went up then your foot did move. How much is hard to say. That is exactly why I pointed out that maybe your controller settings could be part of your problem. I'm very sorry to offer another possible solution. I will not bother anymore.

 

I have had the same spins with the same(?) car as Spinelli had in his video Anyway, I agree that setup is VERY important with these high downforce OW cars. And because I usually suck at making setups I rarely driver them. Fortunately, I can enjoy other content enough to not bother myself with things that feel odd to me.

 

I'm the driver who pulled off the stunning pass in one of racings most technical and difficult corners (Bahrain T10) (big grin) featured in video 3. I dont think it supports your theses point#1.
I had moved brake bias rear wards on exit of prev corner to prevent front left lock up as this corner requires threshold braking with some lock. As such the FL will lock up.
The car was on the limit, the engine and gearbox wanting to continue as inertia would have it to the outside (original direction of travel), you will see multiple adjustments of both wheel and pedals as I manage that slide and keep control. In essence easing of the lock and then counter steering as the rear went light. Adding a tiny bit of throttle to weight the rear a little too.
IMO the car acted as it should.

 

Intresting second video, could have given a bit more time to read the text though lol.
What track is that ? and what were the RR settings ?

 

FR 3.5 is horrid, I have even uninstalled to save disk space. I see the OP point, the physics seems weird when the car begins to lose traction but the total lack of grip is the main issue of this car for me. Just watch any Formula Renault onboard video and realise how the car behavior there's nothing to do with sim thing.

 

I hope you're joking...I explained in big bold writing underneath the video to pause the video in order to fully read and understand the text, and - if that wasn't enough for some people - I also mention it at the very start of the video, in the video itself, lol, come on...

Circuit: "HockenheimRing 1.0" by Tommy78
Layout: "HockenheimRing - GP"
RealRoad preset: "Fullrubber"

I also drove it at ISI's Portugal, and countless other tracks over the past few months. It's a vehicle dynamics physics issue. Changing tracks won't solve it. Decreasing or increasing the track surface grip-value won't change the behavior either, it's purely a vehicle dynamics issue - partly with the physics engine itself, and partly with the car (depending which particular behavior is being referred to).

It's like saying "add more real-road rubber" or "increase the tracks grip-value" and the car's physics will then behave just like rFactor 1, or Assetto Corsa, or iRacing, or Richard Burns Rally, or Grid, or "enter game-name here". I'm sure we all know that is completely un-true. Different physics engines all have completely different behavior and these issues are purely a bit of overall physics engine issues, and a bit of specific-car-physics issues. Just increasing a general track-surface grip value won't change the overall dynamics of a physics engine (but I'm sure you already know this, Dalek, I'm therefore not implying anything negative or rude towards your remarks, but rather just a general statement, not directed personally to you ). Having said that, the grip on the track was fine anyways.

Totally, it's a complete disaster unless you just learn to baby the car in a weird and highly unrealistic way, and drive around it's atrociously unrealistic tendencies.

 

I love those cars and I disagree on a lot of things, what I see from the last video is a driving behaviour that I don't follow, input application look to abrupt to me, and at least one of the spins (2:26) is induced by touching the curb. In other istances the car look very rolling prone, as abrupt steering input make it roll noticeably left and right, something strange from a modern ow quite stiff with default settings. We all know that tire simulation is not final, so I don't see the meaning of spending so much effort in proving something we all know : the simulation is good but it could be better. Simulation, by definition is an approximation of reality, so it can't be 100% spot on on 100% situations, 90% accurate on 90% of the time would be a great goal to reach if you understand what I mean.

 

I think it's not always easy to explain what you perceive. It even isn't in real life where the engineers can be happy there is something like the telemetry to log. The fact that a sim software can't replace reality, even more with less pro hardware, don't makes it easyer to rate and interpret right.

Howsoever, i don't think Spinellis points are easly to explain with bad driving or setup in this case, but to reduce it to a point from my POV, the rf2 cars tend to have to much mechanical grip in cold on the front end and feel in general pivoting around the front axle to much with the set they come out of the box in my opinion.

This is nothing i would call out the first time and is nothing i would perceive first. The most extrem and bad car in this scenario was the first clio release ( remember people where sure the car was already perfect ). The car showed well off how the front end was nailed down while the rear leaved the impression on one, there would be no weight involved.

It even was possible to throw the car around simply by steering without throttle input, and this phenomen starts once the tires or the car leaves straight trailing. There is a imbalance in slip angle as it seems to me, while the front bites to much in some cases the rear is to rough and inable to deal with increasing slip angle over the full bandwidth, not even in driving conditions which are expected as safe.

When it happened first to me i tought wtf,........i never experienced such a phenomen in real, other than with broken cars doing something similar due to a technical damage or crash, but even than nothing comes close to this phenomen other than an excessive pressure on the rear tires in contrast to the front maybe.

The first what comes in to my mind why the car is behaving like that is the grip level because of the front tires which seem to nailed down to the asphalt in contrast to the rear, but same time it could be just the setup or even the weight shifting the seemed to strong in it's impact as as well, but that could also be the result of the imbalance.

It also could be statical oversteering generated by the geometry of the steering what would cause such a overdriving behaviour when the front tires offset would be to high with little steering input,...in other words to much steering angle for the steering input/steering lock. Could be well that the steering is increasing the angle to fast or even more than it should. The car simply overdrived the front for whatever reason,.....if it was the grip balance or something else i can't know, but the behaviour was unbelievable.

This phenomen is more or less represented on the other cars as well but the skippy is actually the best example how a car shouldn't behave, because the most worst street car with 4 tires don't do this,.............not even in cold. The result of the set and the outcoming driving dynamic of are showing off a car with a faulty grip balance already in cold phase to me.

Now the same phenomen as example the current skippy does and did since the first day, while it is most perceiveable in cold green phase, where already the mechanical grip balance seems distorted, and the more in combination with a green track.

I know the tires are WIP but i like how people try seriously to justify some odds.

 

No worries mate.
i can see the rubber in your first video, not in the second.

Before considering the result your test needs to be solid.
IMHO, cold tires (less then 3 laps), green RR, and low aero package is enough to explain whats happening.
Let alone that the default setup is tricky ( again imo )...

Hence why i pointed out in my first reply that tire temps and ISI content only would be good.
With all due respect to modders, we just need to remove variables from this situation.


Edit : yeah for the video, dead serious, some parts are hard to catch without scrolling

 

You are probably right, I know nothing (like John Snow), but looking at the video I see a driver applying throttle while still turning, when everything I ever read about racing tell to apply throttle as you straighten the wheel. The same apply with braking. If there is an issue, it look like the rear suspension is unable to keep the tires pressed to the ground during braking, this lighten the load on them, and applying throttle won't reload the car if instead of pushing the car ahead make instead the tires spin, decreasing the grip another time instead of regaining it, the spin is almost served

 

Most of what I see in the video is a lot of erratic throttle stabbing and overly dramatic jerking of the wheel, which of course makes the car lose grip.
Don't know if its the setup, hardware or driving technique, but it sure does look weird. I've never had such problems with that car, even after hundreds of laps.
I feel I can always trust it under all circumstances, even when pushing extremely hard.
Not writing this to sound smart-ass, but I just find this whole thing very weird. For me this car is one of the most stable and enjoyable rides in rF2.

Edit:
Also I see an insane amount of steering lock, which would greatly destabilize the car.
In many of the incidents you enter a corner way too fast, which in turn makes you turn the wheel way too much to compensate, eliminating all grip and balance.
Very erratic driving resulting in very erratic car behavior as I see it.

 

I think he expand it to much by involving vids, using a bad car to show off and giving people reason to destroy the original intention and context of his post,........and yes it should about how it reacts not why it reacts.

 

I am sorry to disagree with you.

The last version of the Skippy is a real joy to drive (sensibly or like a fool), you can abuse it in a way (near drifting) that the instructors would fire you immediatly from the course if you did that before them.

I never ran a lot the FR 3.5 new version for reasons I won't repeat here once more, but I never had a problem driving this car (a modern OW is very difficult to drive without a good setup and a lot of training).

I downloaded a setup from David O Reilly and a friend (forgot his name) at Racedepartment which made the car a joy to drive and very fast.

But, I don't drive as harshly as Spinelli, I try to follow Jackie Stewart lines "be kind to your car it will repay you", so I am much smoother with all my driving inputs, and probably much slower than he is.

Cheers.

 

Spinelli is not totally wrong in his observation of some cars coming around way too fast at too low of a cornering speed.
I love the game...but I too have observed this behavior...especially in the Skippy.
It can be dialed out with suspension changes but it should not be as pronounced as it is at default.
I haven't driven the Skippy, but I have driven the Formula Ford..which has basically NO wings.

In this short video you can clearly see it happening.
I deliberately chose an official RF2 track and car to preclude any possibility of mismatched physics.
I also drove the car for a considerable time to bring up temperature and to remove cold tires and brakes as a cause.
I also deliberately drove it very slowly up to and into the corner to avoid any momentum spikes... before the back end starts to come around.
Look at the pedal display and the angle of throttle.
There is essentially none being applied.
Now look at the tachometer.
It's coasting down at approximately 4000 RPM at the back starts to go.
As great as the game is, they're still flaws to be addressed.
Saying it isn't so and making excuses...when clearly they're evident, is being untrue to yourselves.
It's very good and I hope will get better.
Like most games on the market, it's not perfect....nothing is.

 

@Lgel
Yes warmed up with some decent setup changes do compensate it well to a part, i agree, but don't eliminate what am i talking about completly, what is very well to experience in cold, if not i can't help and i'm sorry to.

 

The tyres temperatures are missing in the Hockenheimring video.

 

Drive harshly? Do you guys even bother to pause the video and read or watch the throttle graph? There are countless times after times where the revs/wheelspin goes from full-stable to almost INSTANT skyrocketing and snapping while holding NEUTRAL THROTTLE, or maybe just adding a SMALL AMOUNT of throttle RELATIVE TO THE AMOUNT THAT I PREVIOUSLY HAD APLLIED WHILE THE CAR WAS FULLY GRIPPING JUST FINE. Also, almost every time, the total amount of throttle was FAIRLY LOW, and I wasn't going nuts with the car and putting it in a state of wild sliding before applying the throttle; I was going through the corner just fine, nice and calmly and stable, no sliding, then I start to add some throttle and once it gets to any sort of limit-point the physics ONLY THEN just have a freak-attack.

I honestly have no idea what in the world some of you guys are looking at. Haven't most of you guys been watching racing for years? It blows my mind. I even showed vids of real FR3.5s, even in the wet and greasy conditions, let alone all this rubbish about real-road settings, or whatever excuses people want to make. Also, watch any number of the GAZILLION of videos of these type or similar type of cars online (GP2, F3000, A1GP, whatever), cars don't behave this way, it's faulty physics. Even if you initiate the slide on purpose, cars don't behave this way for the most part.

Do I seriously have to post even more videos of real-life high HP open-wheel cars (eg. FR3.5, GP2, F1, A1GP, and so on and so on)? The physics are absolutely behaving atrociously once they get to a certain point.

Tyre temps are fine, Jesus, it's so clearly a physics issue not car setup. Have you ever even watched a real-life racecar on television? A comment like that after sooooo many examples proves you're just looking for absolutely any excuse to defend the game.

What's next? The time of day was set to the wrong time and therefore puts the physics in freak-attack mode the instant you approach on-power lateral grip limits? Geez...

I'm not sure what you're dead serious about...I'll repeat what I wrote in my previous reply to you...Not only did I write in big and bold letters under the video to pause the video during each description in order to read them fully, but I also wrote the same thing in the very video itself at the very beginning. So I still have absolutely no idea what the issue was.

 

In that video it lost the rear because you went from about 50% throttle to %0 throttle almost instantly. This car (in real life) is intentionally built to exaggerate weight transfer..... that is what they do.

Here is a link to a segment of the Skip Barber Going Faster instruction video where they talk about oversteer on the Skippy. He is going around the skidpad and does nothing but lift off the throttle and off it goes off the inside of the track. Again, this car is like a boat and made to exaggerate weight xfer for training purposes.

http://youtu.be/xQRmYMlmdqM?t=17m15s

 

I think he was simply saying that the text clips were so short he couldn't pause in time and had to scroll back and try again. I don't think he is trying to be difficult. Just having trouble expressing himself do to language barrier may be.