RF2 cars tyre model LIST heirachy

Alex72 said:
Like i said, i think those older cars have tighter FFB. Am i the only one? There are a bunch of cars there that have older tires but the FFB is tighter. More FFB around center so you feel what the car does even at Little turning. With the newer cars and new tires i have to turn the Wheel much more Before i start feeling anything in the Wheel. Not saying the new ones are bad, just that perhaps non-DD Wheels lose more initial FFB feel, and for some reason the little (and more) older cars have tighter FFB.
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I have noticed the same, and i quite like (maybe prefer) the feel of older tyres. And i'm using DD.
But maybe the feel was unrealisticly good, and we now have more realistic lack of feel around the center with the newest tyre model :b
 
I think the best FFB comes from the latest tyres. I really like how the Bentley GT3 feels on the steering wheel. It's not only the tyres, the ChassisFlex or UltraChassis needs the pushrod in a more vertical position than before with the old CPM tyres or the non CPM. It creates a more direct translation of the road surface and the inertias of the car to the streering wheel. In other words there is more connection of the car to the surface, faster reactions and feedback.

Just think how you used to drive the old car versions and how you have to do it now. Now you are on the edge of grip many times in a single corner while in the past it was just one time per corner.

In resume, the way to go is high base grip of the tyres, stiffer tyres, micro grip losts, bumpy tracks, and faster reactions of the steering wheel. It's how the real life videos looks like. What it changes? It changes that you know the limit in a easier way and there is more marging to be on the edge or far from it.
 
Damian Baldi said:
I think the best FFB comes from the latest tyres. I really like how the Bentley GT3 feels on the steering wheel. It's not only the tyres, the ChassisFlex or UltraChassis needs the pushrod in a more vertical position than before with the old CPM tyres or the non CPM. It creates a more direct translation of the road surface and the inertias of the car to the streering wheel. In other words there is more connection of the car to the surface, faster reactions and feedback.

Just think how you used to drive the old car versions and how you have to do it now. Now you are on the edge of grip many times in a single corner while in the past it was just one time per corner.

In resume, the way to go is high base grip of the tyres, stiffer tyres, micro grip losts, bumpy tracks, and faster reactions of the steering wheel. It's how the real life videos looks like. What it changes? It changes that you know the limit in a easier way and there is more marging to be on the edge or far from it.
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I agree with you, but on my non-DD Wheel it does not look like real when arms are shaking on fast straights when bumps hit the Wheels. My arms are still on the newer cars because FFB is not around center Wheel. FFB comes first with bumps and details when i steer maybe 45 degrees. Thats when i start to feel the grip and detail. On the older cars i can feel the grip almost instantly when moving the Wheel left or right, and even when going down fast straights the Wheel is shaking my arms and i have to hold on to the Wheel or else i will lose Control. I prefer the latter over not feeling anything until steering 45 degrees to feel the forces. I can steer the GT3 cars with my Little finger but i cant do it with the older cars. I have to use both arms because its Heavy and i can feel the bumps and details coming through. I however prefer to have Everything updated of course. Just wish there was more detail and feeling in the FFB closer to center like the older cars.
 
AFAIK from forums GT3 cars IRL now do have very comfortable steering. Also perhaps they have little scrub radius and bumpsteer, so it adds to comfort.

I'd suppose it is not always possible to tell from the videos if steering is pure input of a driver, is it just reaction to steering output, or something in between. I also feel the need to mention that SAT peak is known to come before slip angle peaks, so "sawing" steering makes sense, also tire deformations and relaxation length should add tiny bit of "disconnect". As for oversteer it is difficult to understand or prove, I have opened a thread to discuss it. For example I dislike how in AC every slight stepping out of rear end produces ffb output, as i think it makes no sense to happen at low yaw angles, at least not so vividly. I had a blast with Callaway GT3 few days ago, felt really right to me, perhaps my fav GT3.

Not gt3 examples... but cars...

What do you think about here at 0:48 steering, to me it looks like driver reactions with inputs are dominating, not reactions to outputs:

2:47-2:50 looks like pure driver inputs to me

2:42 crazy powerslide, probably 50-50 pure driver reaction to yaw angle, and reaction to steering output as well.

First two minutes. Perhaps best GT3 on the limit video I know. Looks to me like pure reactions to the car is dominant over reactions to steering outputs.
 
Damian Baldi said:
To try to make a time line of rf2 tyres is like try to make the same with the human race, there is no line, it's like a tree.

There were so so many changes on the tyres that's difficult to make a list. Since CPM tires were introduced there has been several changes. You have the early ones, then the ones at the DW12, later some variables were added, the important CAP changed all again and finally the lattest QSA and more variables.

Since build 1110 ttool gives a different lookup table result than in previous versions if you run a complete test. That's because a correction made to sort an old mis calculation.

About FFB in relation with the tyres, you have to see the contact surface. The old non CPM had a big and square surface, it gave a strong force all the time, but there were few sensations. Then with the first CPM tyres the contact patch become a lot more narrow, more sensations but less force, so the force was increased through the HDV. Later the pressure on the patch increased with CAP and with the change since build 1110 making the tyre carcas more stiff.

Latest tyres have a lot more base grip, more stiffness but they have micro loss of grip to bring more feedback.

You can't put a newest tyre on a car developed for an old versión of tyre, you have to change many things on the rest of the car or the result will be crap.

This is the story of rf2, an endless bunch of changes, poorly and outdated documentation, tyre examples unfinished etc etc that make it really frustrating to work with.
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AC had 10 iteration of tire models, but I think modders didn't have to spend couple days "compiling" them with buggy tools:).

Regarding QSA fix - at first I thought it was very significant change, because it seemed the model had real, big issues at high speeds and loads. Michael Borda said it's biggest since introduction of CPM. However, in practice the difference in handling was not that obvious.

Since then good refinements were made as a result of Endurance Pack development and working with racing teams.
So I think now Endurance and GT3 Packs are using quite accurate, refined tires and I don't think there will be further significant changes.

@LokiD It would be nice to also have list mods which use latest or CPM 2.0 tires with QSA fix.
I believe Apex GT3 and Endurace Series by Enduracers also have tires rebuild based on the latest available S397 reference tires( so I think the same as currently used in official GT3s?) . But also Group C mod recently updated to latest available tire model. @Damian Baldi are they also rebuild based on the tire database or made from scratch?
 
avenger82 said:
]@Damian Baldi are they also rebuild based on the tire database or made from scratch?
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I started from the old database, I took a GT tire close to the desire size, rescale it creating new coordinates for the nodes, then changed some materials and finally run it on ttool. It took a long time to do that with five .tgm files.
 
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Updated endurance on new shaders

Recompiled newer cars under qsa cpm. I imagine there's further deep changes that not documented so may as well keep it structured
 
LokiD said:
appreciated sir

ill sure keep it updated when we get some cars. :)
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The list could be extended to 3rd party cars which already use at least CPM 2.0 i.e. V8 Supercars 2018 (latest reference S397), Endurance Series (based on reference S397), Group C (ttool), GP3 (S397 - Michael Borda created hard tires based on Pirelli confidential data)
 
Damian Baldi said:
I started from the old database, I took a GT tire close to the desire size, rescale it creating new coordinates for the nodes, then changed some materials and finally run it on ttool. It took a long time to do that with five .tgm files.
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But you used ttool with CalcPointAccel=1?
 
So that's 22 ultra-realistic cars with the latest tires and probably all the latest technologies developed by ISI and S397.

To which I would add the Kartsim (2 karts), the Palatov, the metalmoro, the GP3.

27 ultra-realistic cars.

With the 6 Tatuus coming, and maybe the Reiza pack if it can also be called ultra realistic, the content both realistic and up-to-date starts to be important.

We can also speak of homogeneous content, which is a big rF2 problem.

On the other hand, the content I mentioned is not at all sufficiently diversified.

This is the big problem for me, and that's why I keep the ISI content for the moment (which I fear, will never be updated overall).
 
Hmm. The kartsim pack forgot about them. I wonder what tyres their running I presume same as the normal karts?
 
as im testing the ams cars, ive been comparing the ffb to rf2 cars. I have found something quite satisfying with the new rf2 cars on the lets say "new" tyre model. Ive found that older cars in rf2 the ffb would lose force (too much) at med-hi slip angles, which in some cases made the wheel on my t300 almost go limp when on the verge of grip - I for one have never like this about rf2 ffb.

But in the new cars gt and the mclarens (QSA TYRES) etc, this flaw is not apparent, yes theres slight ffb loss at slip angle but no way as much as before - se we have a more heavier wheel - pretty much like the AMS cars that are about to come to rf2.

But when I tried the Radical SRX (and come to think of it the merc amg) which is supposed to be on the newer QSA model, its still has the "limp at slip angle ffb feel". Ive been comparing it to the new MCR so that's where ive really noticed it. So im wondering maybe the radical is still on the older tyre or something between that and the newer cars has evolved - which is more likely.

Anyway thought ill share my thoughts and say that im really liking the new ffb the new tyre model brings - gone is limp wheel in high speed corners and with it some of the best feeling cars in the sim world to date!
 
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LokiD said:
But when I tried the Radical SRX (and come to think of it the merc amg) which is supposed to be on the newer QSA model, its still has the "limp at slip angle ffb feel"
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I did not ask myself if the FFB is realistic, but I love the FFB of the Merco and the Radical RSX ;)
 
DrivingFast said:
I did not ask myself if the FFB is realistic, but I love the FFB of the Merco and the Radical RSX ;)
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There's long thread about Mercedes AMG issue where FFB goes weak on high steer angles. Apparently it only affects some users. It's not related to tire model because all GT3 have the same.
 
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