I have been doing 10+ track days in real life in my FWD car (Toyota Corolla Hatch, similar to Toyota Matrix in US) with modifications, it has weight distribution of 65:35 with all back seats stripped off, power is 167hp at the crank, weight is 1220kg including driver, so the chasis characteristics is comparable to the renault except it has lower power Current set up of my car 1. Front suspension - coilover with 4kg spring, 25 mm anti roll bar, -2.2 camber 2. Rear suspension - coilover with 4kg spring, 20mm anti roll bar, -1.2 camber 3. Toyo R888 Semi-slicks 4. No back seats, spares, and no passenger seat, no roll cage In this set up, the car is very neutral, lift off steering is not bad even at 165km/h at the corner (fastest corner in my life so far) and I have been doing rfactor, gtr2, for many years.. Today I just downloaded rfactor 2 I was shocked by the physics of renault cilo in the game 1. The lift off oversteering was too much, and I thought the car has rear anti roll bar setting up too much, but when go to the set up and see the rear anti roll bar is detached, I am so suprised, with the amount of lift off oversteering of the car in the game, I orginally estimate the rear anti roll bar is at least 4mm thicker than the front based on my real life experience. Even the stock Cilo has rear anti-roll bar set.. FF car without rear anti-roll bar will understeer very badly 2. Many people I know has set up the front suspension harder than the rear in a FWD car, you can check for the coilover spring rate for FWD car, it is around 2kg heavier at the front.. In the game, I am suprised to see the rear spring rate is significatly higher than the front 3. Rear ride height is 100mm higher than the front. I never see it in my real life, my car has set to 70 to 80mm for front and rear, legal limit of ground clearance in australia is 100mm, so the game is using 190mm at the rear, 90mm higher than the law....are we going rallying? However, I do find some good things about the game 1, if oversteering, I can feel the tyres are rubbing on the ground and lost traction. This is very similar to my semi-slick experience 2. Brake bias is correct for FWD cars I do have video recording of all my track days, and I can show you how my car handles
Maybe the problem is only the default's clio setup, the problem too is that we are not allowed to change it. Or maybe we can by modding it.
I find the lift off oversteer quite extreme on a green track, but this gets a lot better as the track rubbers in.
Watch this Video (sec 40) and you see what a Front Wheel Drive Car does with cold Tires on a green Track. http://www.ring1.de/tv/inboard/media/41/
Remeber that you can hardly compare your car to the racing clio. First off, you are using Semi-Slicks, which have a wider and softer limit than a full racing slick. Secondly, the Clio does have a locking differential, which increases lift-off oversteer alot. Also, the default Clio Setup does have alot of toe-out and the front, this will also increase initial turn in response. Harder Springs at the rear are pretty common in alot of Front Wheel Drive racecars ( at least over here in Germany ) to take away grip at the rear and make the car turn more crisply.
you surely right, but take a look on rear clio suspension. hum... i don't the know the word in english sorry :s but but you'll see why this is "naturally hard". values are ok with the clio cup documentation on this point. Moreover, don't forget that on many cars in rf1 and 2 the motion ratio have, or can have, a big influence on this part. see 150 front and 200 rear won't always say that the rear is harder i didn't understand your point here. you add 100mm on RRH ? why ?
Well how the car handles on a green track is the most important imo, since I wouldn't want my car to behave certain way only when the track gets perfect rubbering, in general the more overall grip there is, the easier/less oversteery every car behaves, doesn't it.. If you take some very oversteering car from any mod, increase BOTH front and rear grip coeffs by the same multiple, the car will suddenly oversteer much less despite the F:R grip ratio being the same. So maybe the clio should have tiny bit higher base grip? But I have no idea, maybe it does very realistic laptimes now so it would be broken then :X
It's not him (benoityip) who added 100mm to RRH but ISI as this kind of configuration is standard for the clio in rFactor2. That's not a biggy, there are other things messing up the experience for me: So far all rFactor2-cars suffer from the tire model remaining unfinished. You really can't judge the cars behavior as tire temperatures (and therefore grip) change so rapidly/randomly. Furthermore all Renaults and Nissans have a tendency to roll over as soon as you hit a curb slightly too hard.
well, i read "190 mm" for RRH and i personnaly can't use or even choose this setup. that's why i don't understand about tires temperatures : i understand your point 10speed i agree there is too much swings ATM. but IMO this happen most of time during big slides, locks or donuts^^ i mean during a normal drive, there is surely still differences but you have to keep in mind that 99.8% of mods and games until now had some wrong temperatures swings too ^^ we generally had some too smoothed temperatures with basically, 90° > 96° on a corner. i never see an accurate acquisition of the clio cup so ... but i never saw this kind of amplitude in any data ! grow up from 80° to 140° in 1 corner happen sometimes in real life. maybe it's too much on rf2 ATM, certainly yes, but if you look the temperatures curves in motec after a run, the global look is more close of real life ones than before.
If I'm not wrong, the default setup values are the same as Renault suggested on their car user manual, so it is what it is.
Unless you actually have the exact same car/setup/tires/weight/brake package/ etc etc etc... you can never compair your "Track Day" to a racing car that is simulated. I guarantee you #1 that you are braking earlier and easier in your real car when entering corners than you do here since you can't sense the speed as well in a game and don't have all of the sensory input as you do in real life. I drive my 370z on track days and would say that my Z on RE11's has a ton more grip than the 370z here, but that comparison is just not valid since I don't have the actual racing Z that they modded here and I know damn well I'm not trying to corner my real Z as fast as I am in this game.
This is Renault Clio the civilian version, race version of course is lot more snappy, can your car do this?: French cars tend to have bit of such habit in general, especially those smaller ones. To see how they are properly driven, search from youtube Jean Ragnotti Clio has weird damper settings, but I guess real one has those too, certainly makes it something I don't like so much in real life as it is missing feel of speed that older car has so much better. Applies to any modern car really. Cars have indeed some differences, when you look alignment data and suspension geometry as general you can see how different those two cars are.
Yes, this is correct, one need to lift and turn before the corner to get car sideways, then floor it and adjust angle with left foot braking
Some of the lift-oversteer is exaggerated by the fact that there is a window of time where the front tires are up to temp, but the rears are still too cold for decent grip. I experience this all the time in my Audi A4 that's setup for SCCA Solo II (D-Street Prepared). The front tires will gain temperature MUCH quicker than the rear. There will be about a 20-25 second window where the car will be VERY tail-happy when making transitions/heavy weight transfers/slaloms. Once the rear tires get a bit of heat in them, the car goes back to more neutral to slight under-steer.
The Clio trophy has a very good physics/ffb and the only car in rF2 that has a wrong physics is,by far,the GTR GT1!
Wrong spring rates or weight, inertia or engine power? What is physics are not wrong, but because of limitations of your gear you get wrong feelings out from it, should physics be made wrong to get right feel? I can't say that physics of GTR are wrong because I don't know what real thing is like, I would need a lot of data to compare until I could make such claims. Also I can't say it would be right from same reason, however given it is licensed car, I would imagine ISI has had data to access and made car up to specs, so I would imagine it being right, it looks more likely possibility to me.
Of course, this is valid also for real cars too @Benoityip There is no real reason to compare spring rates until you know suspension geometry for both cars and what influence does it have on motion ratio.
That is why I would like to see wheel rate in Hz at garage screen, would make lot easier to adjust setup. Anyway, many modern FWD passenger cars have lot stiffer wheel rate at rear than at front, searching flat ride will explain more about it, but it is design feature to make ride more comfortable, however other measures have been made to limit lift off oversteer and such that average joe can't handle, also modern electronic aids have made possible lot of things too on that area.
