Real-Life Road-Cars Don't Drive As "Sim-Cade" As Some Of You Want To Believe

Most people, even in most car video reviews, say and show that a car like an F12 has massive grip, great handling, etc. etc. etc. all the typical things from a modern road car. On top of that most people say things like "road cars aren't meant to kill you like in this sim","if a road car drove in real-life as it does in my sim, then no one would be able to go a block without spinning". The thing is, in sims we brake much harder and later, and we carry much more speed into the entry of corners (and mid-corner as well, but especially the entry and turn-in speed). Most review guys, even "hot-shot" reviewers don't truly drive the cars as hard as people in sims and that's why you can't compare their experiences of "massive grip, great balance and handling, etc." with ours....

Well...What happens when you take an F1 driver who is going to be braking much harder and later, and carrying much more entry and turn-in speed than most "hot-shot" drivers and "track-day warriors"? Well. you see that our sims are actually not as overly/unrealistically difficult as you think (they're not perfect, obviously). Watch the following videos and try to pay attention to the following 3 things:

A. Look how little steering they need to get the car turned into the corner - you can really tell a driver is nearing the limits when you see this because - like in sims - you need need much steering angle/lock to turn in when near the limits because the car gets unstable/lively/"free" when near the limits which

B. Look at the oversteer that can so easily happen on corner-entry, NOT on the exit where we all know that you can just floor the throttle, but on corner turn-in

C. Look at the oversteer that he can so easily get mid corner right near the apex (a second or so before exiting) while NOT having any (or just a very minute amount) of throttle applied

You can see all the oversteer, AND the moments where he had to back off on the steering lock in order to prevent the oversteer from really coming on (harder to notice this second point, but if you pay attention you can see a ton of times during entry and turn-in where he has to either stop applying more lock, or even slightly back off on the amount of lock he's adding due to the car just starting to oversteer slightly).

There are tons of players, from all sim's that would cry that this is unrealistically difficult if the car acted like this in their sim. They would whine about how it get's so twitchy and unsettled under turn-in, or that there's a problem and the car acts like it has 80% of it's brake bias towards the rear, or the tyres are made out of concrete, or whatever. No, sorry, it's called real-life vehicle dynamics.



You can see the exact same sort of stuff here...

P.S. Again, this isn't about the power-exit oversteer that we all know is possible and easy to do in real-life if one wants to, it's about the braking, turn-in/entry, and mid-corner. And please don't use the excuse that he is "flicking" the car, drifter-style, into every corner, because he, for the most part, is not.

 

I never said the steering isn't telling him information, and I never said the car is difficult to drive because of lack of feel. My OP has nothing to do with feel or FFB, or anything at all regarding how easy it is to control slides. Plus if you want to go there I can upload a lap of Aytron Senna lapping 2 seconds quicker than Prost in identical machinery, or Schumacher doing devastatingly quick laps and say "the car honestly looks easy to drive" or "it honestly doesn't look hard to do a lap as quick as him". Also, if you even want to go there, regarding "feel" (or FFB), then the car around him + g's is probably giving him way more info than the wheel itself, except for mid corner when you add more lock, but anyways that's a completely different discussion for another thread. I'm talking about physics / vehicle dynamics / handling behavior, not "feel"/ FFB.

 

Just a general discussion that road cars are also very sensitive when near the limit. People tend to watch too many "non-high-end" drivers/racedrivers reviewing cars, or have their own opinions from their own or friends' experiences, and because they don't bring them to the limits like guys like Raikonnen do, a lot of people then get this false idea that road cars are these super stable and safe cars (besides exit-power oversteer which we all know is easy to do even in a high powered roadcar).

Just general discussion, not specific to rF2 per say, since most people don't see this side of roadcars. My racing instructor used to do the same with a 100% stock Chevrolet Cavalier Z24 - very little lock needed to turn the car into the corner because he was "tippy-toeing" and "dancing" with the car near the limits during braking, entry and turn-in, and that's not even a sports car.

 

I think the last biggest thing missing from sims is G-Force.
Even in a motion simulator there isn't much g-force

I have a plan for this though.....................

 

It doesn't matter what you drive, from bicycle to small hatchback to supercars to racecars, when you get to the limits of the vehicle and tires, things get interesting.
My two favorite sims demonstrates this very well, and I am happy as pig in s**t.

 

Hey Spinelli, what's up, are the rf2 forum meanwhile boring you or did anybody upset you outside this forum, that you need to discharge some pressure because i can't see much people in the ISI forum complaining about the road cars beeing deadly weapons. Altough it could be disinterest

 

Not directed to any particular sim, speed1, just general discussion as many people think sims are unrealistic because roadcars can sometimes get edgy and start loosing control and traction under braking and entry. Like Golanv said, this happens in any vehicle when you start approaching limits of grip from a piece of rubber and road. I see comments many times from people saying that some roadcars in sims slide too much, are too tricky or require too much precision and control VS how any "joe-blow" ycan just abuse a roadcar. They fail to realize that they can do that only because they aren't close to the limits. What's worse, is that some then crank on a ton of mid-corner steering angle until the tyres understeer and say " See, I am at the limit!" they fail to realize that they were only at the limit at that particular moment, mid-corner, when it came time to really add a bunch of lock. Whereas guys really driving on the limit don't need so much lock cause they get the rear to slide-out even in roadcars, even with lots of front-brake bias, but most drivers don't experience this.

There are some corners there that Raikonnen almost had to just keep the wheel straight in order for the car to turn into the corner (rear-end sliding), the car was almost turning on it's own without even using any steering lock. You won't see this from youtube or magazine car-testers, let alone your average driver, and that's why many people think these sims can sometimes be overly difficult and overly slippy-sliddey, because they haven't experienced these sort of limits - what it's like to "dance" with the limits of the car, to "tippy-toe" with the car in a constant sliding state. My racing instructor was doing the same with a 100% stock Chevrolet Cavalier Z24 (last model years), if people experienced this in a sim, many of them would complain about how an everyday family roadcar is way too difficult in the sim and say complete non-sense like, "even when I take corners hard in my real-life Cavalier, it doesn't slide and oversteer under brakes or turn-in like it does in the sim. These cars are designed to be safe, not kill it's passengers!"

 

Dear spinelli!!
i must agree with you!!
that's remind me how much time i wasted trying to speaking with Lord Kunos in drivingitalia forum time ago !!
"fighting" against him telling how really difficult is to try to be stable with a sport road car with "standard" tires like pirelli zero..... i drove for the first time the real track Magione with my alfa gt with other road cars
a porsche 993 carrera 4, fiat abarth ss, fiat coupe, other alfa and a rs Cosworth and she..... the beast!!!! an m3 e92 marvellous!!..
well my car is front wheel traction..asr off ...and start!!!!!!you have no idea how can be a front wheel traction oversteery!! with my big surprise!! it's very hard to keep calm trying to don't do mistake braking late and hearing how your f-----g tires are squearing!!!..the bmw m3 overtook me so easly but so easly was involved in a spinning in a mid corner!! after 15 laps i was really happy to finish without any problem!!!
At the kunos they say everybody can hotlapping with a sport car and road car easely! without spinning! maybe you should post this thread in their forum!!


,

 

I know that iam a simple demo user but ^ why you think that a can not hot lapping a sport car with easy ? mayve i cant compare with the best but...

Btw so much bash to AC made almost drope some coffe over my desk lol .

My point in this is very simple ,road cars are meant to be driven the comun user too (and often the rich guys) ,not every car is friendly to the unexperience ppl,but for that reason you got things like abs and such.

Cheers guys .

 

I don't see any contradiction between the Kunos statement and the videos posted above.

 

+1

assumptions and ridicule

I agree

Almost like Spin takes too much notice of the people tell him what is best .

Or it bothers him what they believe.

I dunno.

Like someone saying

wtf does that prove, the physics are all good . ? lmao




All I know is I do not give a crap what any other person thinks about any sim and feel no need to vindicate myself to anyone or anything.


rF2 CRAPS ON THEM ALL !@!@!~


looool

 

You mean with AC you work hard with the steering wheel like kimi does in the video? With no aids? AC seems to have the traction control and abs always activated! Have you ever tried la Ferrari? Please be serious! Quite 1000 hp behind your back! In AC It's like driving a toy!

Inviato dal mio SM-T705 utilizzando Tapatalk

 

lol . did Kimi actually giggle? Kimi -" not the fastest way around here".. Guest- " but the most fun" looks like Kimi could do a much faster(smoother lap).

 

Guys pedals are the most important device in real life and in sims.

 

He actually did post this in AC forums, and I have no idea what are you trying to say? That driving a car is not easy? Or driving a car fast is not easy?
Depends on the car, and depends on the driver, and the weather, tires, surface you are driving on, blah blah blah...

The basics of driving a car on a track is not any more diffucult than going to get milk from the store. Driving that same car to its limits, is the hard part.
If you have understanding and knowledge of the driving physics, you should be having less struggle to get aquinted with the vehicle you are trying to tame, and get closer to that goal of limit.
I doubt that many here have the balls or the skill to achieve such limits of supercars, including you. Sportcars like mx5 or *insert hothatch here* is much more likely to be given the full beans by the average Joe, given the less power/speed and confidence inspiring driving aids.
But to have a hard time driving anything road legal with 4 wheels around a track and not spinning, thats just over eagar stupidity from the drivers part.

Sim wise, rF2 and AC alike are heading to the same place by different routes. Absolutely nothing wrong with their philosophies.

Do you even have any idea how LaFerrari actually works?
You need to go read some reviews or specs or something, cause seriously... forget it I'll just see if the ignore button exists.

 

AC = Sim-Cade i'm sorry for you!

Inviato dal mio SM-T705 utilizzando Tapatalk

 

My pedals spike, my FF rattles its head off and my crappy plastic wheel physically bends on it's axis 1/2" and melts during a race !@! LMAO


I WILL STILL RUN YOU on my Favourite F3 circuit " any day of the week .....any of you " ................ !@!



hehehe

 

I meant pedal inputs mate, its my "rally English" you know having hard time to get it right

 

So to summarize this thread, there are a lot of retarded people using sim racing software. Thanks for sharing.

 

I get your point that some sim racers think some sims are too slippery. I am one of them... iRacing, in my opinion, was that way for a long time. It has improved with recent tire updates though and I actually think the modern sims are converging a little bit in this regard.

Still--- reference the video, the F12 has 730 hp and road tires so, yeah, it will oversteer all day long. The tires aren't even the stickiest road legal ones available. I don't think Kimi is doing anything overly dramatic in this video that many road testers haven't also done with the F12. Take a look at the Chris Harris video to see more dramatic drifts with it. So I guess I am not sure it is a great example to make your point because it has so much power and is front engined-- of course it will behave this way.

I think a more relevant set of cars to look at are the GT3 cars. GT3 cars have a ton of grip in real life but some sims are showing them stickier than others. AC has their GT3 cars as less prone to oversteer than RF2, iRacing or pCars equivalents. I am not sure which is most accurate but the differences in that class of car is most noticeable for me across the major pc sims.