Real-Life Road-Cars Don't Drive As "Sim-Cade" As Some Of You Want To Believe

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Spinelli, Dec 13, 2014.

  1. Shamrock

    Shamrock Registered

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    @ Paul. I'm almost impressed...since you have actual experience in a real road car (one that is also in game)...I ask.

    Why is it many of us "sim racers" can get close or even beat the time of a pro racer car driver's REAL time. Can you explain that?

    I mean, Senna drove the NSX on Suzuka, and I can come within 2 seconds of beating his time. Should I be a REAL mid pack F1 driver? (sarcasm before you get into a bunch!) It has always befuzzled me how we can do that.

    And as for race cars, I have beaten Schumacher's REAL time @ Monza, and Juan Pablo's time as well (with the William's BMW)? Speaking game of course, not real.


    As for whoever told me about Christmas gifts...I am getting i7-4790k, mobo, and R9 290 video card. :D

    I apologize if I came off abasive. I had the federal Gov't wanting me to send in official documents ASAP, and I was upset.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 16, 2014
  2. Shamrock

    Shamrock Registered

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    Fair assessment. :)
     
  3. Spinelli

    Spinelli Banned

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    Lol, I'm not saying experience and practice doesn't make a difference, and that other F1 drivers should be 5 to 7 seconds slower than Senna, you're just twisting everything I'm saying around to hell and back. Furthermore, you're severely, severely underestimating skill; it's not just about practice and experience, if it was, then Senna surely would have been in last place in that race, and Jenson Button would have annihilated Kevin Magnussen in every race and qualifying session, and Senna would have no way lapped over 1s quicker than Prost at Monaco qualifying. We're all different humans with different brains working and calculating things in different ways, to say we all are equal in every field, in all activities, in all processes, as long as we all have equal experience/practice time is just not the case. This is just basics about how we're all different, I shouldn't have to explain this to you.
     
  4. Taranta

    Taranta Registered

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    :p
     
  5. Comante

    Comante Registered

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    I think both of you ( Paul and Spinelli) are right, in the sense that there is truth in both of your posts about training,talent and skill.
     
  6. I3bullets

    I3bullets Registered

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    Most definately! There is only so much you can achieve with pure skill and likewise with pure experience/training. With the same dedication Michael Jordan had you (starting at 34.1%) can become a great basketball player (upper 13.6%). But you won't necessarily be a superstar (2.1%) and most certainly you will never be a megastar like MJ (0.1%).

    [​IMG]

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yJBXcxRTZY

    --> look at his overall at 3:25!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPLOEKzQUIc

    --> let's hope he survived this...
     
  7. IgnacioK

    IgnacioK Registered

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    Back to the original topic , the OP is in ''my'' opinion wrong in some things :

    "road cars aren't meant to kill you like in this sim","if a road car drove in real-life as it does in my sim, then no one would be able to go a block without spinning"

    And then in the B and C ''oversteer''

    To back this he show a video of a F12? lol that is a ''normal'' car? becouse that dint look like a Vauxhall Astra diesel or a car with -100 hp (the secon video an SLR? really?)

    The problem is you want an absolute anwser and is imposible , ''not every car are the same (weight distribution/hp/torque...) some cars are made to be driven by the ''normal'' ppl and others not (some are made by and for enthusiasts/semi experts)

    Off course you can get killed driving a normal car ,its happen every day in some places , but those cars dont try to kill you in every corner like some super cars.

    Again this is ''my'' opninion .
     
  8. jakobdylan

    jakobdylan Registered

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    LOL hahaha:) are you kidding me are you racing with a F1 World Champion?
     
  9. Max Angelo

    Max Angelo Registered

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    No, yesterday evening i forgot to take my pill, becoming a naughty boy.
     
  10. Spinelli

    Spinelli Banned

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    Yep, most can achieve quite a bit, I totally agree. Obviously experience and practice makes a difference. No human being wakes up one day and is all of a sudden going around 3 superstar defenders on a soccer field without ever having touched a soccer ball in his life. I never said practice and experience don't matter. I'm a way faster simracer than I was in my first year, as I'm sure we all are, I'm a faster keyboard typer than I was when I first touched a keyboard many years ago, this is all just common sense that, lol. Some people unfortunately just twist things that other people say around in order to try to win an argument, maybe it makes them feel better or something I don't know.

    I've been in a Chevy Cavalier driven to the limits (well, as fast as the driver could go) by a racecar driver, Toyota Carolla, and a stock base model C6 corvette, they all were thrown around and had their balance/grip/behavior "manipulated" just like the Ferrari F12 and the SLR (besides power oversteer for the Cavalier and Corolla obviously, lol), as others have said (I think it was Minibull who explained it good) all cars can become sketchy and sensitive to your throttle/brake/steering inputs when you are on the edge of traction, especially when the speeds really start picking up. Some cars stay very stable for a long time and need to be very close to the edge before they get sketchy and sensitive, while others (like racecars) can be sketchy and sensitive much easier, but it can happen in every vehicle, every vehicle has a limited amount of traction.

    If a driver wants to, and has the skill/feel to do so, he can make a 100% stock "safe", "slow" car like a Chevy Cavalier or Toyota Carolla oversteer upon corner entry and to the apex in order to aid in compensating for the natural overly stable, understeery setup and design built into these cars (more difficult the slower you go though as cars general get less sensitive and "sketchy" the slower the speeds). It's very difficult to do because of the suspension setup, brake bias, and overall design and setup of these kinds of cars And requires precise technique in how you apply the brake, how you release the brake, and how you mix all that with the steering, but it can be done, and you can see it being done by most roadcar vidoes being driven hard by real top-end guys like I linked to (obviously Raikonnen was over-doing it in order to slip it more than necessary for fun, but that just made it easier for us to see what I'm talking about), yet you hardly see this behavior from "regular" drivers since they aren't taking the cars to the limits as hard, or in the same way.





    You can find tons of videos like this of roadcars if you search online. This was obviously a mistake, rather then deliberately using the rear to rotate to get rid of understeer during braking and turn-in to a corner, but it still highlights the sensitivities that occur when you're nearing that sketchy area of the limits. Now, how many times does that happen to us when we go around a left hander on the road (even when we feel like we're driving fast), hardly ever I bet, well that doesn't mean the car isn't capable of it if you were closer to the traction limits and did certain things with your throttle/brake/steering inputs, but some people DO think this sort of behavior is almost impossble from "safe" roadcars, and then when it is modelled in sims, people complain about cars not being easy and simple enough to drive hard, then they start complaining about the game being too difficult relative to real-life just because THEY haven't experienced their road car behaving this way which doesn't mean "squat". That's all I was trying to highlight with this thread - that just because 99% of drivers don't experience these limits with their road cars, it doesn't mean those cars can't/won't act like that if driven hard enough like we do in sims, or like many, many videos prove.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 16, 2014
  11. Led566

    Led566 Registered

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    1997 F1 World Champion, I believe.

    Anyway yesterday evening I run two manches in GTItalia NISMO champ with Federico Leo (google Lemans 2014 entry list :p). I was 4° and 6°, Leo won the second manche.
    I know you are a Gtitalia subscriber, so during one of the next scheduled races with rF2, come with us in Team Speak and ask directly Federico about his experience with rF1 and rF2, maybe you'll be surprised or not , who knows...:)
     
  12. traind

    traind Registered

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    Malcom Gladwell's book Outlier's sheds a lot of light on what makes people perform at the "genius" level. The book painstakingly covers many, many examples and studies from different fields... music, sports, software coding etc... and the key variable is always the extent of practice a person dedicated to the skill. Other variables support it-- such as availability of resources to practice with, timing of shifts in technology with the age you were when it happened etc but it comes down to practice and commitment. 10,000 hours was the amount most frequently cited as the threshold due to a detailed study of world class violinists.

    People like Senna and Michael Jordan--even among the professional ranks--- tend to work and practice longer and harder than most of their competitors. Do they have a few physical talents that some of their peers have slightly less of? Maybe. But the studies show the key variable is being more highly committed in an arena where resources were available for them to practice longer than their peers. Of course the biggest differences are visible between the typical enthusiast and the pro--- and there are the biggest differences in actual amount of practice as well. Why do you think so many pro drivers are children of former pro drivers? Genetics? Nah... they had access to track time early and often unlike most of the rest of us. Plus expert coaching to make the most of their time spent practicing.

    I am not saying there are not other pertinent variables in play... but "skill" is developed through practice. Senna's God given gift was more his ability to fully commit to one thing completely than it was some innate driver skill. Plus an inordinate dose of self confidence even compared to other professional race car drivers. And don't forget being born to a rich enough family that had the means to get him practice time on track amidst a nation of people that often struggle to earn enough money to keep food on the table every night.

    And one last thought... Senna was mighty fast-- no one argued he was usually the fastest on the grid during his time in F1. He certainly was in qualifying. But was he really that much better than Prost as a total package? Across two seasons paired with Prost, Prost outscored Senna by 13 points as officially scored and if you look at all races from those two seasons (not all races counted toward end of season scoring back then) then Prost outscored Senna by 32 points.
     
  13. jakobdylan

    jakobdylan Registered

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    OMG are you really raced with JV ?c'mon are you serious ? I know JV loves sim but are you sure he was real JV?
     
  14. Spinelli

    Spinelli Banned

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    Prost was one of the sports all time greats as well, of course Senna is not going to blow the living daylights out of a guy like Prost, come on.

    Natural skill (human biology, the way your brain is "wired", whatever you want to call it) will only get you so far, you need to develop yourself to extract the max potential out of you/your biological design as possible. You need to practice, commit yourself, and try to do it more than anyone else. Push harder, not only practice, but pay attention to how and what you're practicing, the different exercises in order to get the best performance-gain out of your practice as you possibly can. Having said that, people who do this equally, will not turn out with the same amount of performance. Practice will make you improve OBVIOUSLY, but it goes much further than that. I'm sorry but saying that performance is just about how much time you have to practice, is the biggest load of bull-crap; the proof is there "all around us" in our daily lives. I know people that simraced for 10 years and I was faster than them after 2 years, I know guys who lap just as fast or faster than me, and they only started simracing 2 or 3 years ago. I used to play soccer no more than twice a week at practice and once a week at the games, and I was the 2nd or 3rd best player on my team. Meanwhile there were guys who also played it on their school team, they went to these summer-long practice camps, etc. etc. and they were average at best. There are people who have never acted a day in their lives who who would make good actors, and people who have been acting for years and still suck. All our brains are "wired" differently, it's so much more complex than just "we all have identical talent and skill as long as we all have equal amounts of training", that's ludicrous.

    I think it just feels good for the ego to say "hey, if I was given enough practice, I could have been an Ayrton Senna, or a Nikola Tesla, or a Rafael Nadal" or whoever. Just humans being humans I guess. We often would like to think and believe the things that make us feel good. I'm not saying that none of you couldn't have been an Ayrton Senna, of course it is possible no matter how unlikely, but to say we could all be him if we had the same amount of practice hours as him? That's just being delusional and totally illogical.
     
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  15. Led566

    Led566 Registered

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    Amico mio, questo lo devi chiedere a Max, non a me...se invece vuoi parlare con un più "umano" Federico Leo vieni in TS su GTItalia e lo trovi spesso.;)
     
  16. Panigale

    Panigale Banned

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    Exceedingly Delusional and obviously never playing any sort of organized sport in their life. If someone started as a kid in carts, possible, some kids show talent and hence the continued investment. For everyone one of those very few, there are the multitudes of kids that start young and never reach very far. Resident tennis pros were usually ranked players. Same story, started very young, never got past being ranked near the bottom of the top 1000 or something along those line. These are guys that not only knew the basics but have been honing their skill since childhood. It is the internet so of course we have in this very forum exceptional untested talent, whom very likely flat spotted those NSX tires on those spins (suspension of disbelief fully engaged because the tale is a tall one) then went on to set a near track record (on said tires, or did those get changed now?) after a couple pointers. Truly amazing stuff. Thing about lying to people that know better, hard to cover all the angles. Then this all happened with Mr. Miyagi's stable of cars he is too old to drive so he brings in his best boys to work them out.

    And that picture of metal work? Anyone with a slightly trained eye can see how the edge at 1 o'clock is more narrow than the rest of the piece. You didn't line that hole up well and that is poor craftsmanship. If that is a door knob, who cares, if that is supposed to go into a watch? Good luck with that. I'm sure you'll have five to ten paragraphs of why that doesn't matter and that Laurent Ferrier couldn't get close to your work. The tall tales are thick indeed.

    Sorry to the OP my last off topic post.
     
  17. DurgeDriven

    DurgeDriven Banned

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    Why you got to insult one another.


    I may have very very different views to most of you ( I do know that ) but I don't insult people to explain my points.
     
  18. traind

    traind Registered

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    No one ever said everyone could be Senna or Prost.

    I acknowledge now, as I did in my earlier post, that there are other variables at play beyond just practice. But unlike your posts in which you reference your personal viewpoints based on anecdotal evidence, I am quoting an extensive body of research that shows the single biggest variable is amount of practice. You mention years of practice comparisons etc.... but not all practice is equal. Differences in intensity, focus, coaching and feedback all play out very differently. Very few people have the single minded dedication to practice as much as genius level performers. That is likely the major difference between average, good and top performers in every field (if they have equal access to actually practice the skill-- which in racing most do not have). Once you get to the very top, the differences between a Prost, Senna, Lauda or Mansell are fairly small and may be harder to determine.

    As an example: I am unwilling to divorce my wife in pursuit of a career goal. Senna was willing and in fact, did, just that. Think about that! He was also so hyper-competitive that he drove straight into Prost at high speed to win (and to right a perceived injustice). His level of single mindedness bordered on the insane and it produced some very questionable behaviors along with the brilliantly entertaining and blisteringly fast lap times. Behaviors that few at the time, and fewer still now, were willing to call him out on (Jackie Stewart being a notable exception back in the day).

    You say "natural skill" is the difference. I say natural skill is actually the ability to focus on one thing with an immense intensity for a prolonged ability of time... producing enormous results from incredible amounts of practice. Go read Outliers--- it is very entertaining and will likely be enlightening for you.
     
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