Released NEW! GT3 Pack - Now Available!

Ari Antero said:
I feel somehow that you didn't get the point about refund in my post # 675 and about iRacing in my post #680 :p
You showing better ways and not buying any more if this model continues is kind of argument I did hear from my children when they was young. Adult people understand that there is going to be only one looser :D.
Click to expand...
Yes, your post is very adult like.
 
Claudio Souza said:
First: I have the pack with the 5 cars, and I want to compete with someone who has only one, questioning is my right;
Second: The question was not for you, if you feel uncomfortable, close the page, and do not read .........
Click to expand...

S397 rarely respond here, which I can understand because these threads get to pointless wars. You are much more likely to receive an answer from S397 on Discord. It was discussed some time ago there and they said "maybe in the future", which to me me mean there is no way it will happen this year at least. It has nothing to do with S397 being evil and not allowing us to race, it's a technical decision that requires an entire new way of distributing cars. Same reason why it's missing in Assetto Corsa.
 
Ari Antero said:
I feel somehow that you didn't get the point about refund in my post # 675 and about iRacing in my post #680 :p
You showing better ways and not buying any more if this model continues is kind of argument I did hear from my children when they was young. Adult people understand that there is going to be only one looser :D.
Click to expand...
Your kids sure were smarter than you. Customers vote with their money, 24/7. If I have choices I'll choose. :)
Yeah the only loser is the dev. My life does not depend on a game. If yours do I'm so sorry. I suggest seeking a doctor tho, this stuff is a snow ball mate, dont ignore the symptoms.
Thanks kind mature man for the life lesson.
I guess removing you from the list was a mistake heh
 
Last edited:
davehenrie said:
What happens when the DLC tracks are available? Do those 8 drivers without the track get some sort of dispensation and receive the track just because? No I don't think so. IF folks want to race against all the GT3 cars, or any other DLC group...then simply buy the whole package. And if not....Plenty of other cars and tracks.
Click to expand...
Nobody is arguing that.
It is clear that you have to own the track and the car you are using. Endurace series run several cars and the more DLC cars comes out, the more divided will get the community.
 
The problem is that S397 are on the horns of a dilemma here, because there is no option that satisfies everyone.

The iRacing model has each piece of content treated individually; you want to drive it, you have to own it. You can download content in multiclass so you can see it but not drive it; for cars, tracks you always have to own even to be able to spectate. This causes (a) expensive content, which they try to mitigate with various volume discounts and (b) space taken up on your local storage.

The R3E approach is to download everything to local storage, whether you own it or not. That ends up taking a huge amount of space. It allows them to display any content (cars) and ownership simply unlocks it. However, they realized early on that individual content costs is very problematic with multi-class or single-class/multi-brand racing, such as DTM. So they came up with the concept of packs, which now has typically been applied to car content for series, but you can also buy track packs. Since this is only unlocking, its simpler to control but you still potentially run into the issue with already owning a piece of content that exists in the pack you want to buy. The only mechanism to deal with this is to make pack pricing low enough it becomes less of an issue. Primarily the issue is with tracks. Thus, its possibly a better option to only ever do tracks as individual content purchases and not packs. This all works because there are no mods, so there is a finite amount of content available; but space is still an issue. I uninstalled R3E when it took up too much of my precious SSD space.

All other games have a combination of DLC/paid content and free mods. And this is where the problem comes in. Either you take the same approach as R3E and make any official content already downloaded to local storage so you can see it but not use it unless paid for, or you don't. The existing content, even free content, is one you have to subscribe to and download by choice (and you can always delete it if you'll never use it, say, like the historic IndyCars). The userbase made a request to create packs; so that we have more consistent availability of content across more users and avoiding conflicts. That won't happen for everything. I'm going to assume at this point that we'll get car packs and not track packs. Which becomes the best compromise position given all the other mechanisms they already have in place.

I'm not sure what models Steam supports. The pack wasn't done as DLC, its done as Content from the store, and even if the pack is bought, you can still control whether you download all elements in the pack or just the ones you want. I'm not sure you can force subscription of all elements in a content pack. If it's DLC I'll assume its non-divisible. So arguably, this could have been done as DLC if they wanted to force the entire pack.

It's at this point a matter of education; recommend people buy the pack. I'd really suggest they don't offer content individually that also exists in a pack, and also avoid any overlapping content across packs. And always sell tracks individually. There's still a chance you end up with something bundled in the pack that you didn't want, but that's the way the cookie crumbles. We do need a statement from S397 on what they intend to do here, though.
 
The problem is not what kind of purchase policy they are going to follow, however important.
Problem is people just can't seem to get on too well with paying for RF2 for the first time ever after the initial purchase.
They need to get over it, you can't have continued development of any project without funding it.
That you can't race against cars in the pack you do not own is by no means indicative of what route they will choose to follow in the future or that it necessarily will remain such, for this pack specifically, forever.
At the moment we do not even know what their plans are for the next paid DLC, if there's going to be any official racing, how and when etc.
Still have to introduce the new UI ASAP, switch to DX11 and bring in the rain improvements.
It also wouldn't hurt if they fixed all the s**** that's going on with trying to run a server, the complexity of it and the bugs.
In the meantime, release of the GT3s is a useful injection of cash and by no means obligatory to anyone, especially with so much free content out there available.
I guess if access to quality online racing in RF2 were easier people would spend more time driving and less time arguing.
 
It is paradoxical that rfactor that has never taken a dlc, the many people to protest, they do not charge and continue to support.
in life we all need to charge to support a family.
A.C. goes by almost dlc every 15 days.
studio 397 has improved much rfactor2, will continue to do it slowly but without pause.
support more and protest less,only constructive criticism
iracing if you do not pay annual goodbye. AC AC EVERY 15 DAYS,Raceroom dlc monthly also ,pcars are already on the two, is some new graphic effects and more of the same, codemaster f1 how many are already?
buy the dlc of 5 cars € 15 in four years........... protest less, support more, buy a full pack, stop stories, and cry less
 
Claudio Souza said:
First: I have the pack with the 5 cars, and I want to compete with someone who has only one, questioning is my right;
Second: The question was not for you, if you feel uncomfortable, close the page, and do not read .........
Click to expand...

I was replying to you for the simple fact, that some of your friends "gave up buying the pack because they don't want to buy the whole pack" and not because I feel uncomfortable. Maybe I come across a bit cynical as English is not my native language, but let me put it like this:

As I bought the pack I knew two things for sure: I will only be able to drive against other cars of the pack if I buy the full set, because there never has been any info or clear official statement on whether we will get a different solution or not, no promises no nothing. In that sense I bought the pack for the product rF2 as is, something that I would recommend everyone while purchsing stuff. Next to that I exactly knew that buying single cars is more expensive than the full pack, except that the pack might be cheaper in the future due to a sale. It isn't higher science or anything, so questioning S397 after your friends made their purchase is frankly speaking something that I find a bit wierd. Sure you can do it, but buying something with a grain of hope is generaly not going to end well and people will be disappointed more often than not. Maybe S397 will implement a better solution, who knows. It would be great, but so far there is nothing on the radar and for questioning their approach you are a bit late to the party. I hope that helps you and your buddies to make a better decision next time ;)
 
SPASKIS said:
Nobody is arguing that.
It is clear that you have to own the track and the car you are using. Endurace series run several cars and the more DLC cars comes out, the more divided will get the community.
Click to expand...
My point is...you HAVE to have the track, even if it's DLC if you want to race there. It is the same with the cars, if you want to race vs the GT3 powerpak cars, you also HAVE to have them. We would not expect a paid track be given away just because some league members have not paid for it...and we should also not expect the Paid DLC car content to be made available at no cost[even if only to view or race opponents who already have purchased the cars]
 
I think the only way that S397 could make the DLC content available to those who did not pay for it is to make rF2 a partially closed eco-system. The other sims that allow players to race against non-purchased DLC are R3E and Iracing. Both closed ecosystems. No modders can add their content to the game.

rF2 has been built from the ground up to be an open system, available to modders to build custom content. This is in direct opposition to what R3E and iRacing have done. This is not to say though that S397 needed to shut down modding to close or control the eco-system. But it would necessitate much stricter control over the content that is DLC and Payware. The modders requesting payment for their mods would have to submit the mod to S397 for inclusion under any DRM, Encryption, or other anti-pirating methodology.

Currently the only way for S397 to insure that no one can obtain their content is to lock it behind the Steam inventory system. URD (the only other non-S397/ISI payware) suffered from an inability to monitor and protect their content from pirating. URD content is purchased, used, and distributed on an "honor system". This means that any unscrupulous person can obtain a copy of the content without actually paying for it. S397 does not wish to have their content ripped wholesale and distributed to unpaying users.

All this need to control the DLC content raises some interesting possibilities with regard to how S397 continues to develop rF2.:
  1. They could continue in the direction they are currently on. They could simply say, "No racing against content you don't own." and carry on allowing modders to create content for free and telling the payware developers, "protect your own stuff."
  2. They could completely close the ecosystem and only allow content in that passed their standards. That content then becomes included in the protected content, thereby eliminating alot of what rF2 (and rF1) was built upon. This would also likely take them away from steam distribution as it would likely become more of an iRacing style sim as a service for online racing.
  3. They could try to build some sort of hybrid ecosystem whereby any paid DLC and Payware was protected through encryption or other similar technology. There would have to be some sort of check to allow for DL of the content to drive against but also be able to know if the user had actually purchased the content they would be driving.
With options 2 and 3 above the servers would have to be controlled by S397 in order to have this end to end protection of content. Indeed, this is what R3E and iRacing have done. AC has an open ecosystem and we see that they also do not allow for racing against content the driver does not own. PC2 has not yet released any of their DLC (As far as I know at the time of this post) and I dont own the game so I can't say if they have cracked this nut. But, they allow for users to create and host their own servers so I find it very unlikely any driver will be able to race against content they don't own.

In the end the closed system is completely against what rF1 and rF2 were created to be. It is unlikely that we will see a true iRacing competitor (In that they have the same ecosystem and completely controlled servers and race structure) from rF2. This is both a good and bad thing to me. I loved the simplicity and ease of use iRacing brought, but the physics, FFB, and most importantly content cost and subscription keep leading me back to rF2. iRacing needs a true competitor and I was hoping the improving rF2 would be that.

This is something that i am sure Marcel and his team have been trying to figure out. I certainly hope they get the right balance struck and we get to see the triumphant ascention to glory that this phenomenal sim deserves.
 
I don't know how rF2 works internally, but i think that this problem could be solved creating a fictional 3D model for all the oponents you run against, and you don't own the car.
i.e. S397 creates a fictional 3D model of a car called S397 GT3
And if i own the McLaren 650S GT3 and enter in a server with McLaren 650S GT3 and Bentley Continental GT3, i'll see the McLaren as McLaren and the Bentley as S397 GT3. If i enter in a server with McLaren 650S GT3 and Mercedes AMG GT3, i'll see the McLaren as McLaren and the Mercedes as S397 GT3, etc.
A part from this, i suppose that there is a problem with the mismatch error produced because of the different content.
 
davehenrie said:
My point is...you HAVE to have the track, even if it's DLC if you want to race there. It is the same with the cars, if you want to race vs the GT3 powerpak cars, you also HAVE to have them. We would not expect a paid track be given away just because some league members have not paid for it...and we should also not expect the Paid DLC car content to be made available at no cost[even if only to view or race opponents who already have purchased the cars]
Click to expand...
That's the whole point, you must own the car you'll drive thus the track, no big deal.
Now if you'll race with other classes for example LMP and you dont want them you should not be forced to buy it. Unless they then add it to the base game and rise the price of it after every new item added. But if going to add optional content dont force people to buy stuff, this will fragment the community leading the competition system to a miserable failure.

People are thinking about it with only one pack, you guys need to see it more about the future. Especially with 3rd party mods being added to the store. You believe it or not, you like it or not, quite a good amount of people don't like to pay for modded content (Personally I dont have a problem with it).

AMS, RaceRoom and Project Cars allow you to race against content you dont own. Heck AMS will allow you to drive a car you dont own (you must own the track if it is DLC), but that's a bit too much IMO.
There you have 3 isimotor based systems doing the right thing. Can only hope S397 will join them in near future. Enough of this topic :)
 
Last edited:
Will Mazeo said:
Can only hope S397 will join them in near future. Enough of this topic :)
Click to expand...

I just hope I do not have to download tons of content I do not want.

As @lagg says best possible solution seems to me to use a base car to replace the DLC, anyone who wants to enter a server and not have all the cars will be able to do it and the rest will save us having to download ALL the payment content that is launched for rF2.
 
A dummy car is not the way to go IMO:
- The vmod philosophy where all cars need to be installed would need to change.
- the dimensions of the dummy would not match all cars.

I think the easiest way would be that any content could be installed in rF2 ( as we do with dedicated servers). For selecting the car you would have to own it. It's as simple as that. In the car selection screen only owned DLC + free content would be shown.

BTW it hasn't been stated if actual DLC system is suitable for 3rd party content considering that it goes to the "inventory" which seems to be reserved for official content.
 
Depco said:
I think the only way that S397 could make the DLC content available to those who did not pay for it is to make rF2 a partially closed eco-system. The other sims that allow players to race against non-purchased DLC are R3E and Iracing. Both closed ecosystems. No modders can add their content to the game.

rF2 has been built from the ground up to be an open system, available to modders to build custom content. This is in direct opposition to what R3E and iRacing have done. This is not to say though that S397 needed to shut down modding to close or control the eco-system. But it would necessitate much stricter control over the content that is DLC and Payware. The modders requesting payment for their mods would have to submit the mod to S397 for inclusion under any DRM, Encryption, or other anti-pirating methodology.

Currently the only way for S397 to insure that no one can obtain their content is to lock it behind the Steam inventory system. URD (the only other non-S397/ISI payware) suffered from an inability to monitor and protect their content from pirating. URD content is purchased, used, and distributed on an "honor system". This means that any unscrupulous person can obtain a copy of the content without actually paying for it. S397 does not wish to have their content ripped wholesale and distributed to unpaying users.

All this need to control the DLC content raises some interesting possibilities with regard to how S397 continues to develop rF2.:
  1. They could continue in the direction they are currently on. They could simply say, "No racing against content you don't own." and carry on allowing modders to create content for free and telling the payware developers, "protect your own stuff."
  2. They could completely close the ecosystem and only allow content in that passed their standards. That content then becomes included in the protected content, thereby eliminating alot of what rF2 (and rF1) was built upon. This would also likely take them away from steam distribution as it would likely become more of an iRacing style sim as a service for online racing.
  3. They could try to build some sort of hybrid ecosystem whereby any paid DLC and Payware was protected through encryption or other similar technology. There would have to be some sort of check to allow for DL of the content to drive against but also be able to know if the user had actually purchased the content they would be driving.
With options 2 and 3 above the servers would have to be controlled by S397 in order to have this end to end protection of content. Indeed, this is what R3E and iRacing have done. AC has an open ecosystem and we see that they also do not allow for racing against content the driver does not own. PC2 has not yet released any of their DLC (As far as I know at the time of this post) and I dont own the game so I can't say if they have cracked this nut. But, they allow for users to create and host their own servers so I find it very unlikely any driver will be able to race against content they don't own.

In the end the closed system is completely against what rF1 and rF2 were created to be. It is unlikely that we will see a true iRacing competitor (In that they have the same ecosystem and completely controlled servers and race structure) from rF2. This is both a good and bad thing to me. I loved the simplicity and ease of use iRacing brought, but the physics, FFB, and most importantly content cost and subscription keep leading me back to rF2. iRacing needs a true competitor and I was hoping the improving rF2 would be that.

This is something that i am sure Marcel and his team have been trying to figure out. I certainly hope they get the right balance struck and we get to see the triumphant ascention to glory that this phenomenal sim deserves.
Click to expand...
This is the closest "read" to my open letter I've seen, I offered my open letter to Christopher, but I've had no response from him or Studio 397.

PACO :)
 
@Christopher Elliott

In GT3 cars, add ABS and traction control to garage? as Simtek or URD moders do?

Use ABS as a different way than rF2 difficulty options, also to in future could use ABS to send instructions to pedal. Or give detailed info about cars, to understand if a car is modded with ABS or TC as default, that's an interesting info that in old times was in the rF2 web and detailed in Tunning options.

Maybe start to work with ABS suppliers (Bosch...) to achieve different intrussion levels of ABS.

The feedback from ABS to brake pedal, it's really interesting. I think that nowadays there is no video-game which have a channel to send info to the brake pedal, and when ABS works, brake pedal loses pressure.

Of course real gearboxes, not with feedback to hardware that could be glorious, almost "real" gearboxes as iRacing or Assetto Corsa do. That's really important when people try to talk about a video-game which improves to a simulator.

Thanks a lot Chris if you could give your opinion or maybe say in a Roadmap if S397 wants to improve these.

Regards
 
Last edited:
This link seems to be of hardware for automotive simulators/industry, maybe more complex software as Cruden or rFactorPro.

I also have seen months ago pedals with vibration in a hardware company for video-games in USA, but I think that there is no video-games (rFactor2, iRacing, Assetto Corsa...) with a dedicated data channel for pedals.

I don't want the complex of Cruden software in a video-game, but gearbox or ABS (not artificial vibration on brake pedal) improvements are really interesting in video-games.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top