Lets talk about the MERC GT3 FFB?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by LokiD, Nov 30, 2017.

  1. Bidle

    Bidle Registered

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    I can do pretty good times with this Merc lap after lap and therefore, for me, has nothing to do with performance of the car regarding traction/understeer/oversteer.

    The FFB gives just a completely different feel compared to the other GT cars. It is too far away, from the others, which already is noticeable when driving away from the pit.
    In general I feel there is a difference in force between all the cars. Probably the Mclrn 650 is the ‘heaviest’.

    Maybe it is the gear (wheelbase, driver, etc.) that is being used.
     
  2. Manfredk2

    Manfredk2 Registered

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    The biggest problem of this car is, that the AI has some problems to handle it
     
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  3. Bidle

    Bidle Registered

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    Probably more a matter of personal preference. I care more about the driving experience and don’t mind too much about the AI.


    Of course, I agree that the AI could use some (or a lot) TLC.
     
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  4. Tomislav Leskovic

    Tomislav Leskovic Registered

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    Just because you don't feel it, doesn't mean there is no problem.
    Interesting how people that have this issue (me included) seem to know how to drive other cars, it's just that we don't know how to drive merc.
     
  5. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    It is indeed geometry, it begins from two moment arms: one is mechanical trail which is result of caster, and other is pneumatic trail which is tires own thing that depends on slip angle and load and probably tire itself. After that there goes plenty of other geometry stuff. Steering weight also depends on steering ratio, faster steering is heavier, because it has to do work with less steering wheel rotation.

    It is correct if steering torque starts to drop before reaching optimum slip angle. It should be that way, and thats why some fast racers tend to do little bit of steering sawing at the limit, the sweetpoint is unclear.

    I am sure I have shared this many times (might have done here already), it is awesome knowledge:


    So watched this video one more time, and I started wondering, would higher inflation pressure of tires reduce that drop off in rF2 for Merc ? I mean it would reduce tire deflection, so less loss of mechanical trail aka caster thing.
     
  6. davehenrie

    davehenrie Registered

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    I would be the first to admit I'm driving the car incorrectly, but I drive the Corvette, Aston, Bentley all with the same problems of driver technique and those three front engined, rear drive cars are much closer to each other and not remotely like the Merc.
     
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  7. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    The geometry has more influence on this than the fact they're all similarly laid out cars. It may simply be that you're over-steering (turning the fronts too far) all the time and the Merc is making it more obvious. (in many mods with a wide caster range you can basically decide whether you want good strong FFB the whole time or lose a whole heap when you start scrubbing the fronts - but that doesn't mean this issue is about setup caster either)

    Now whether that geometry is correct is another matter entirely - but the car feeling different doesn't make it wrong.
     
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  8. Comante

    Comante Registered

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    If all the cars would feel the same, apart from the 3D model, why they should exist as individuals? I tend to accept things as they are instead of constantly disputing what I don't know or understand. Not being a race driver, I have to accept I don't know how it would feel.
     
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  9. davehenrie

    davehenrie Registered

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    I would prefer many of the cars exhibit a different feel. But that might be differences of a degree. Not an entirely different feel which the Merc provides.
     
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  10. franser

    franser Registered

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    The Mercedes ffb feels fantastic, I have a fanatec and the loss of grip in the front end feels very good, either from driving the curve at a higher speed than allowed or from using a lot of steering wheel angle when turning.
    It feels different from other cars because of the position of the engine of this car
     
  11. Bidle

    Bidle Registered

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    It is just too light on my system. You can already notice when driving in the pits. Basically I can drive the Merc around with two fingers and need two hands with the Mclaren.
     
  12. franser

    franser Registered

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    Increase the ffb multiplier on the Mercedes
     
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  13. davehenrie

    davehenrie Registered

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    I think folks are mis-construing what we are saying. Yes the steering goes light mid-corner. When all the other cars fight harder not lose the grip the Merc has long given up. But it's not oversteer, it is a reversed effect being generated. Initial turn-in should be light and the forces generated should then grow as the forces of the car react with the tire. Eventually the tire will lose the battle and slide, but this is NOT that. Imagine a curve rising upward based on my above description. Curve starts shallow, steepens, peaks, declines and flattens as the corner is traversed. The merc gives the opposite results. The initial grip is strong where the other cars are light. The curve then bends DOWN (not rises) to a low point before rising back up as you complete the turn. The tire behaves as if it's deflated. Wallowing thru the corner til the weight of the car forces it to turn.
    Oversteer would begin exactly the same as it does on other cars. Good grip as the corner progresses, a bend up as your wheel fights the corner and only when the car approaches where the slip angle is overwhelmed would the forces go light and the car looses it's ability to track. With the Merc there is no initial build-up to the point where the tire slides but rather an immediate loss of resistance which occurs much too soon to be representing oversteer and it continues to soften when it should be stiff. I know I'm a pitiful person to be trying to describe this, far better drivers seem quite happy with the reversed effects. The closest analogy I can come up with is the throttle. For all the other cars, when you mash the pedal the engine spins up as quickly as it can. Overcoming the original static weight of the moving parts and friction so a slight flat curve followed by a sharp climb as the rpms build. Now imagine you mash the throttle and the car at first SLOWS DOWN. That it never really accelerates(or at least slowly) til after the torque peak has been reached. THAT is what we are trying to say is happening. The car is not talking in the same language as the other cars.
     
  14. Filip

    Filip Registered

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    AI uses Logitech and is not happy with Merc's FFB. It would be nice if there is a possibility to setup Fanatec wheel and up the ffb multiplier for AI.
     
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  15. vittorio

    vittorio Registered

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    I already said what i wanted to say, so my last post to that discussion. For me the GT3 Merc, yes is different to other GT3s, but it gives me most FFB details. Thats why the Merc is by far my most favorite GT3. @davehenrie :"The car is not talking in the same language as the other cars." Is that good or bad? Should all 13 GT3 feel like the same? I really wish a real GT3 Merc driver to join that discussion, telling us if wrong or right. That wont happen of course. But maybe the GT3 Merc physics guy from S397 could speek up and telling us why GT3 Merc is different? Or if not possible, maybe a knowlegded S397 member? Since we already discuss that same thing for almost 3 years (started Nov. 2017) and no feedback from S397.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2020
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  16. Bidle

    Bidle Registered

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    Yes, it is starting to become a repetition of the same arguments. I believe to have enough racing experience to know what I'm feeling. In the end it is just a game and actually this game gives us a great experience to get a glimpse of racing. It is pretty amazing what the developers can do, knowing that most of the information, while racing, comes from other parts of your body on what is happening below you. I don't care much about the Merc, it was just something I noticed and posted in another topic. Before I noticed this topic a couple of days ago.
    There is plenty of great content to have fun with.

    Also noticed for myself it is better to stick with asking my NOOB questions as I'm not very good with PC's, drivers, installing, servers, etc. :) The forum is really helpful with this, but do notice when it comes to comments regarding the content it is a bit different for me. Somehow there is also a need to make a lot of assumptions and defending this game. Of course, also in some cases in a good way, trying to find the cause, etc.
    Don't get me wrong it is not an attack or complaint, it simply how I perceive this and therefore better for me to stick with racing and my occasionally stupid questions; Where can I find, How can I create, etc. :D

    ps. @vittorio Nothing to do with your post,... just got it out of my system and back to,.... another car. ;)
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2020
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  17. davehenrie

    davehenrie Registered

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    I'm beginning to understand how folks like the Merc's ffb. At least half of the ffb. I tried the Merc at Portland and the first half of the lap felt pretty good. (default setup, no changes) I could feel the wheel reacting to the road surface and it actually felt good until the back straight. As I sped up the front began to lose feel.(like a ski boat) When I got to the left/right combo at the end the back end swung around like all the weight had transferred to the rear. The entry to the combo was ok, but as I tried to swing back to the right, the weight just took the back end around.
    So yes when driving the Merc, the wheel is transmitting more slow speed information, but goes completely bollocks as the speed increases.
    I then switched to the new Bentley. The feeling during the slow first half was heavy but numb. All the little responses the Merc generated were overwhelmed as if I had smoothing at 10. But then at high speed, the tires and wheel gripped just as expected without even trying to swing the car's butt around as I changed back to the right. How do we combine the two vastly different responses from different cars? I want the tires to grip and feel connected during high speed maneuvers, but I'd love more of the road reaching my fingertips without then going all rowboaty.
     
  18. Emery

    Emery Registered

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    If you're relating the experiences to speed, then the three areas I'd examine are aerodynamics, ride height, and toe. If it's related to how you get on/off the throttle/brakes, then I'd be adjusting slow speed shocks, spring rates, swaybars, and toe.
     
  19. UGM 133A

    UGM 133A Registered

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    I never bothered with this car since I thought it would be a bit understeery, but after reading through some of this thread, I decided to see what all the fuss was about. Turns out, it's not understeery at all and is actually very nice to drive, it has very neutral handling and is honestly very easy to control at the limit for me.

    I do feel that the self aligning torque is less than in some other cars, but not by a huge amount and definitely not an unrealistic FFB by any means. I think if you use a direct drive wheel then you shouldn't have problems feeling what the car is doing. I didn't notice the wheel getting lighter at higher speeds either, in fact it seemed heavier and that would probably be attributed to the downforce.

    Here's a video of my first timed lap, I only did a single full lap prior to this video. Completely default setup.

     

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