Le Mans Virtual 24 hours 2023, Verstappen rages

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by AlexHeuskat, Jan 15, 2023.

  1. Binny

    Binny Guest

    When the CS is already no good, why would you even think of holding such a event ?
    If they want to continue down this path make the CS priority number 1.
    But as some might say they might have bigger problems only time will tell.
     
  2. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    The CS wasn't used for this. This is a standalone event on a server, like people have been doing for, like, ever in rF2 (with varied, but mostly pretty good, results).

    The CS is also going to get an update/revamp, sometime this year by the looks.
     
  3. Rui Santos

    Rui Santos Registered

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    I would sue Max, in case the problem had not been on Studio's side and unless he didn't recant himself...
     
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  4. Roninho

    Roninho Registered

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    That is all nice and i have heard that for years now, but the reality is that RF2 has a long list of bugs that are not solved so the income from the dlc hasnt been spend on that.

    This buggy experience has forced a lot of customers and potential customers to move away from the game, and RF2 is both not solving the bugs nor adressing its bad reputation. The event of last weekend is just another confirmation (out of a long list) for non RF2 users that RF2 isnt worth their money.

    These bugs and bad reputation and the effect on sales is what is holding RF2 back from becoming something close to it's awesome potential.
     
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  5. Roninho

    Roninho Registered

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    Sue him for what and based on what?
     
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  6. Comante

    Comante Registered

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    Where are data to support those claims? Before the 24h the average review ranking on STEAM was "very positive", now the recent review level is "average" and magically around 17/01 appeared a lot of negative reviews.
    Coincidences?
     
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  7. Rui Santos

    Rui Santos Registered

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    Because he's a public celebrity and his words had negative effect on the simulator aswell as with the sponsors and all the marketing around the event...

    Also it has negative impact at how people look at virtual motorsport... iRacing fans, ACC fans, etç should not be proud of how he talked about the event or the simulator, his words affected waaay beyond one simulator. I've read lots of comments like "virtual racing is childish, buy a real car" and things like this by ignorants on the subject.

    Even in a Portuguese journal the title on the main page was "Max angry with virtual motorsport"...

    We all, no matter what sim you race on, should be ashamed on how he treated simracing overall!
     
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  8. burgesjl

    burgesjl Registered

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    I don't know what infrastructure is put in place for these types of major esports events, but it seems to me that if MSG/S397 are trying to use the same ones that are used for the consumer average-Joe versions of the game, it will continue to fail spectacularly as this one did.

    First, this needs to be put on dedicated hosted servers from a reputable game hosting company. If I understand correctly, in the middle of the race this server was moved to a completely different system/domain because the IP address for the original server had been compromised. That should never, ever be necessary to do. I have seen screenshots that imply the Steam servers list for rFactor 2 listed the LMVS 24h server along with all of the 'consumer' servers. That should never, ever, happen. That server needs to be hidden from the world. When you connect to iRacing, there is a single URL into the farm, and internally the software will determine the IP addresses but the actual server itself is never exposed, only the path into it. That path is as fully protected as it can be from DDoS type attacks. Now I gather that sim racing makes it difficult for these security systems, because there is a high volume of traffic of small size constantly coming in, which is probably exactly the same in profile to what a DDoS attacker would use. But the best hosting companies know how to address this.

    Now, I don't actually believe the server was DDoSed: I think what was happening, was lots of people trying to attach to the server as spectators or in some other role. I think the way the standard dedicated_server is written, you can connect to it in various roles as a spectator and race control and suchlike (i.e. not a driver). I also have a suspicion that the actual system responsible for rendering the race visuals, attaches as one of these standard role types, because that is just making use of code that already exists. But its been known to cause troubles for ages. So, I think there is a need for a completely different server component for esports races, that cuts out all of these other roles that have been defined, and instead operates new ones with new code that only the esports events can utilize. That would cover the rendering of the graphics, and also race control functions and also team manager type monitoring functions. So this probably means including new client systems/modules for those roles, as well.

    Finally is the code used for the clients (drivers) themselves. Since Steam allows the idea of non-public betas, thats what should be used for all drivers. Regular users should not even be able to get at that code. Thus, the special esport client can also have different code to the regular consumer code. I believe that content (cars, tracks) can be made available only to those on specific betas. This will also mean that regular consumer users can't even connect as spectators to view what is happening because (a) that won't have access to the beta code and (b) their regular content won't be the same as the esports content.

    There needs to be significant investment made to the esports-only versions of the systems used for these events. It's the only way to make it work. Those need to be customized solutions and means that regular Joe users can't interfere with them.
     
  9. Bernat

    Bernat Registered

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    You don't seem to understand very well the technical side. No one is safe from DDoS attacks. Even the best companies can suffer them, and one thing you got right is that most prevention and mitigation measures are not applicable or wouldn't work.

    I've read that the server was only published for the second part of the race, possibly due to a mistake when changing servers. But the attack was done on a hidden server. That's what has been said.
     
  10. Comante

    Comante Registered

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    Only 5th graders would need an IP to make a DDOS attack, people that hack stuff for a living or for hobby can find what they need in multiple ways, all that it takes is a reason to do it.
     
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  11. Navigator

    Navigator Registered

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    You are so right!
    Everyone knows you have to be THE internet EXPERT at the highest level before joining a game?!
    I mean; you can't just be good at racing, buy a game, get a setup and all installed by experts and think you can play: NO, you have to have worlds best knowledge of how internet works, connections, nods, routers, servers, IP and so on.

    And no, surely NOT a Max fan(!!)
     
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  12. mantasisg

    mantasisg Registered

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    This sucks so much that after years, 24h race still can't be done without issues. Actual LeMans in 2020 was rather amazing though, although even that had a couple of maintanence resets iiric. Was it really some kind of attack on servers, or was it just some errors happening ? This is very unfortunate, because it seems like fixing this stuff sucks a ton of resources of development, I can't imagine how complex it can be.
     
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  13. Art_Pereira

    Art_Pereira Registered

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    You misunderstood what I posted. If MV, or somebody close to him, would have explained the several reasons of his disco, I guess he would have reacted in a different way. Frustrated? 101%. We all have been there, and several times. But we know that that sh*t can happen.
    And I don´t watch nor follow F1 races since the mid 90s, so I am not a fan or care about any F1 driver.

    So your stupid post is a proof of how wrong you were. Get a life and next time use your brain.
     
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  14. Navigator

    Navigator Registered

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    Charming.

    Coutie will be so proud of you.
     
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  15. Owen Pyrah

    Owen Pyrah Registered

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    I think the server would have been password protected, so I can't see it just being a bunch of people trying to hop on to spectate. Whatever the issues are, they seem to only appear when there's a lot of eyes watching to see it go wrong. Like the championship up to that point was fine, wasn't it. But then the Le Mans race comes up and again there's issues. I don't know the answers but can see the servers are too vulnerable to attack at the moment. Hopefully lessons are learned and it can be tightened up for next year. Because I still think the sim itself is probably the best place for these events right now.

    Every time someone says 'MV', my first thought is Maverick Vinales the GP rider. Finding it really confusing ha.
     
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  16. hitm4k3r

    hitm4k3r Registered

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    The real drop began mid December after iRacing presented their statement and after some celebs published their video about the topic. The issues of the LMV were just the icing on the cake for people complaining about the sim, rightfully or not. If someone with 180 hours gives a bad review there isn't much you can complain about. What is more worrying for the studio is the people who simply buy the game, have 5 minutes of playtime and give it a bad review due to MSG. I mean, reading a comment about a long list of bugs that haven't been resolved after DLCs were published just reads like a comment from an angry customer who hasn't used the sim in years. Where is the long list of bugs that I can read and check what needs to be done to make MP and SP usable, because for some reason it works 99,9 % on my end? There are very few obvious bugs that come to my mind, like the game losing FFB and the unresolved FCY situation. But that's all I can think of right now, that stands out as very obvious bugs but that are very easy to work around.

    @Navigator: You are right that not all drivers have to be IT experts. But at that level of competition I expect a high end team like Red Line to have an expert for hardware and software related issues, if that much money is at stake, a person who can tell the drivers how things work and where potential issues are. In F1 they call them engineers, so people like Max should be familiar with the concept. I also expect them to read the rules so that drivers are aware of what can happen and how to react accordingly. At the end it's all a matter of preparation as in real motorsport. I mean, how does it come that a guy like Simon Pagenaud swaps whole sim rigs during a race while, Max Verstappen doesn't know that using WIFI isn't a 100 % reliable way to connect to an MP server? And now don't bring the this-is-all-just-fun-argument, because it obviously isn't if big manufacturers invest that much time and money to bring their best drivers and teams to the race. What get's ignored a bit in this whole discussion is that we are talking about top level sim racing here and not some backyard bobby car racing.This isn't just average gaming anymore.
     
  17. Owen Pyrah

    Owen Pyrah Registered

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    There seems to be a smear campaign that's been going off against rF2 probably since around when MSGM bought S397. There's a lot of vitriol on the iRacing forums and subreddit about it. The same (mostly untrue) things get bandied around which makes it seem like it all originated from a small group of people. But then with the size of the iRacing user base it's just spread like wildfire.

    I try to speak up where I can, but you find you just get downvoted and the same nonsense spouted back at you. Try to have a normal conversation and it's like they already know they are talking rubbish and are not interested in being reasonable. I don't understand the motivation behind it really. What is gained by destroying another sim?

    I like iRacing and think it has a good overall package for online racing. It has a good forum and generally things do work ok. It makes for a nice fun game, but it is lacking in several areas that prevent it from being the best sim. Like it doesn't have:
    • Realisitc tracks and marshalling systems - they are often reusing track side assets and sometimes even curbs are just wrong. They completely miss the marshall lighting boards too.
    • Collisions in pitlane - cars are just ghosted like it is an arcade game.
    • Traffic light system in pitlane - it is possible on some tracks to start the race from the pits and arrive on track ahead of all cars. The only available answer to this is to just report a protest against the driver.
    • Weather - it is always a summer's day in California no matter which track you race or on which day of the year.
    • Reliable netcode - of all sims it is iRacing which gives the most false positives. Such as driving side by side with a car's width between you and suddenly being punted into the scenery. Working around this makes for less exciting battles and honestly it makes online events like Daytona 24H look pretty silly.
    • Realistic slides - even 5 years after NTMv7, once a tyre reaches a certain slip angle it lets go until it has been reset. There is no sudden re-gain in traction once grip has been found.
    • Realistic qualification sessions - you just have the track to yourself. Which makes it easier to put in a lap, but is not realistic and feels weird.
    I don't think rFactor 2 is perfect either, but I do really enjoy driving once I am in the sim. The driving feels the most natural to me of sims I have tried. AC is also good, but for me rF2 has a better feel on corner entry and apex. AC can feel excellent on exit, but rF2 is still very good here. But I also appreciate the little details which remind me of being on track. It is immersive and satisfying. Such as leaving your tent in the paddock to travel to pit exit. Having a marshall at pit exit only letting you out when the track is live and also warning you of approaching cars. The lighting boards at marshal stations. All the trackside machinery, fencing, vehicles, buildings etc is unmatched.

    That said, I also really enjoy ACC. And I've spent time on R3E too. It seems much of the trolling on social media is created by people who have only ever tried iRacing. The childishness of it also does make me wonder whether little groups of them would try to attack events on other sims. They were certainly ready with the memes and false information after Le Mans anyway. All reading from the same script. I also see on reddit how the americans fight with each other depending on which political party they side with. It seems ridiculous really. Then when I see these memes and troll posts on the iRacing subreddit it feels really similar.
     
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  18. GregW5

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    Many are very clan like in their sim of choice. iRacing die hards seem to be the worst in their condemnation of other sims. As I said earlier, they believe everything in iRacing is better than everything else. If you criticize iRacing on Reddit, forums, etc it’s a continuous barrage of anger, hatred, hostility, etc from iRacers because you dared to do so.

    I saw Michi’s take on the LeMans race and he brought up what I believe was a great point. In real racing you have occasional mechanical failures. In sim racing you can have connection issues, computer issues, etc. Max has certainly had mechanical issues with his redbull on occasion. He doesn’t tell redbull to burn the car. Why? Because such things happen. It’s a known accepted issue….it’s part of racing. Same in sim racing. Things happen. It sucks. It’s a known factor going in.

    I’m not capturing his take very well, but thats what I kind of took from that particular part. Makes sense to me, anyway.
     
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  19. Owen Pyrah

    Owen Pyrah Registered

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    Yeah I heard Michi's take on it, and it does seem to be the way the team took it when it happened last year at Daytona.
    upload_2023-1-20_10-52-34.png

    Though I think there is more room for improvement in rF2 servers than on iRacing. I mean on Michi's video he did get disconnected from his LFM race didn't he. Right while telling everyone not to uninstall the game ha. It remains that rF2 is more finicky, but once you have it up and running there is no competitor. It's just the times it doesn't work right which really ruin the reputation. It's like you could have a Nissan Micra (iRacing) which is guaranteed to start each time, does everything you want it to, but doesn't excite you. Or you could have a Ferrari (rF2) which is more likely to need time in the garage, but is exciting to drive when it works. While for everyday use you may choose the Nissan Micra, for a big race event the only choice is the Ferrari.
     
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  20. EricW

    EricW Registered

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    How to take this serious..
    When you look at all investments made, by the organisation, teams, sponsors, all representatives interviewed selebs etc.
    And meanwhile the used platform, the heart to make it all possible is on on the verge of bankruptcy.
    To me it doesn't add up.
    I'd say, put the money where your mouth is.
     

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