This thread went to a different way. People are questioning about the physics itself, I wasn't. Despite the not very polite answer I received from Tim Wheatley ("he's not concerned"), I'm just putting again: unlike some guys here, I don't see significant flaws on the driving itself. In my humble opinion, the cars behaves correctly both low or high speeds. What's I was wondering it's about the overall grip when track is green, which recalls me a real life wet track and this is absurd. As soon the track get rubbered it seems perfect. Before anyone asks, yes, I have real life experience with powered cars and karts too.
This video is actually a perfect example of what's wrong Every time the driver is getting slip he is throwing it into a slide which it then gets locked into until grip bits back , rather than the angle of the car being pricicely controllable at all times from throttle or steering. Its very much slide no slide slide no slide where as in a real car the transition from any given slide to being griped in is incredibly subtle gradual and controllable. ( In most cases unless you are going over a bump or are driving particularly bad) If watching that video or driving as in that video you cannot see what is missing or what is wrong about it then I don't think anything will really convince the people that believe RF2 does not have any issues when at the limit of grip. I and anyone with a modest amount of skill can throw a car around and get those kinds of results in the video , the fact of the matter still remains that the driver is a hostage to each of those slides and has very limited control over the angle of the car from steering input or gass , its simply a case of the driver waiting for car to grip in or snapping it back to the griped in state.
jameswesty, have you saw my video compared to your best friend hioihaa's one? and can you show me a video of someone in real life doing that slides you are talking about? I'm asking for It some pages because I can't found examples of what's you are saying. Or even a Skip Barber doing more controlled slides than that video, all I found are short slides and spins
jameswesty was here months ago arguing the same points over and over and over and when we asked him back then for videos I'm pretty sure he never posted any of himself (driving that is not naked!), either way its the same old argument he bangs on about and he wont shut up about it. Yeah we get it already, if you dont like the game piss off and play something else!
http://youtu.be/xQRmYMlmdqM?t=22m38s - the key thing to note is how a skilled driver still has very precise control over the car when doing this and can balance and chose the angle of the car on the gass whilst mainting the same radius turn. Obviously this is far harder on different corners with different types of camber different amount of grip. Different cars and different car setups will have different upper limmits but within that limit the driver can still largely control a cars angle with grate procession assuming they have a moderate to high level of skill . You can see multiple times in the first lap that sure he is ragging it around for fun , but he is still totally controlle of each slide. I think allot of people that play RF2 would be suprized how much angle you can achieve in even race cars and how much slip you can get whilst on the gass whilst still being in control so long as you apply the appropriate amount of lock. Its clear that nothing will convince people otherwise anyway , we will see how RF2 develops and how other sims develop over the coming years.
Are you saying that on asphalt you should be able to hang the rear end out consistently at any angle you want through every turn? For every car? For example are you saying you should be able to hang the tail end of the formula Renault out at a 30 deg angle all the way through the Parabolica?
This is just a suggestion, but perhaps in real life the tracks you've raced on have never been as 'green' as you might think; whereas in a simulator, green means green - no rubber at all on the surface?
I tried the Spark F2 at Montecarlo, starting from a green track, after some lap to learn how the car behave, warm up the tires and let the track be a little rubbered, I was able to catch any slide.
Yeah, maybe. But we should consider a race track it's only 100% green when it's opening day or after repave. There's activity often in a race circuit. Ok, Schumacher, so your point is: since you're able to drive the grip is correct? I'm able to catch the slides too, so?
EXACTLY. Yup. I definitely think that about NK Pro as well. AC I cant really say, other than it seems the same thing has been done according to Elise videos. HOWEVER, the pure driving physics in AC looks miles better than in NK Pro, yes unlike Hioaa and Westy, some of us judge an entire physics handling system based on all physic/handling traits/characteristics, rather than just judging an entire physics/handling dynamics model purely based on powersliding situations like they do. I will be buying AC, and along with RF2, they will most likely be my 2 sims of the future. Having said that, Netkar Pro physics are PURE ASS. Other than being good when it comes to porpusely man handling the car (real rough bad driving, warm up lap stuff etc), it was good in that area like Hioaa and Westy say, HOWEVER, in all other situations like in braking, entry, mid corner, exit, feeling of brake lock up, how the car is reacting depending on the lock you are using on turn in, how that is affected by your braking and nose dive, etc etc etc etc (just the overal general physics/handling), it was just PURE ASS and didnt relate to real life AT ALL, unless again, you just drove a car and manhandled it for fun, thats all it was good for that sim.
Maybe that's why ISI has pre-rubbered settings for their tracks (*haven't checked for all tracks*). Besides, it really differs a lot per track how much it is used, and how much grip there is.
It's really easy to drift with Skip Barber in rFactor 2 with practice... I'm talking about going in "grip limit" as you and hiohaa said before (you change point of view every time we show you something destroying you say) pushing in corners as Formula Abarth guy is doing, but is a shame we have not a Formula Abarth to compare, despite of that, FR3.5 with some setups can be driven as that guy, not too radical but similar (ar a lot more downforce car). I will show you too if you want soon when I get server replays of last race of my league. And if you want too give me 24 hours and I will show you how I drift with skip Barber I'm still waiting some comparative car to rFactor 2 doing something you can't do in rFactor 2, three post asking It, please, a GT1 doing something diferent to I can, with Corvette, Megane, FR3.5... because all cars you are showing can't be compared (only Skip Barber, and that's easy to do ), and Formula Abarth is similiar to me driving 370z...
Well most definately it's not like that with real cars! Once you're very near the grip limit of tires (already at right slip angle) then transition to major loss of grip happens extremely quick. This is why it's very much "slide - no slide - slide" just like in rF2. Being able to be on throttle to catch slides helps making recovery lot more gradual and controllable but it has nothing to do with how tires are working but because it prevents weight from transferring into front tires. If one lifts too much when rear-end is sliding it will lead into violent and uncontrollable counterslide. Are you absolutely sure you're making perfect job with your feets too? If not then it would explain why you're unable to drive like guys on those videos you keep sending. Because I can and frankly don't see anything on those videos which behave different than rF2. Your description about driving with rF2 differs so much from mine that there must be something wrong on your side. First of all make sure your total input lag from your hands through PC and monitor to your eyes is very low. I've made some research on this issue and there are simple methods how to measure this lag on your system: http://isiforums.net/f/showthread.php/9888-Input-lag-measurements Without very low input lag you can't drive like this guy on the video you sent: (IMHO he's at the very early stage of learning the car, track and/or conditions because he's making loads of mistakes and for sure is not happy about that kind of driving. Obviously getting better towards the end but still struggling) Another very important factor is tire sounds. Make them loud because they are crucial to be able to be near the limit. I actually think tire sounds are the only output we simracers can use to be able to stay on right slip angle because from visuals it's almost impossible to notice properly. OK maybe historics are exception. Third extremely important thing is how many frames per second your monitor is showing to your eyes. 120 FPS over 60 FPS has difference. At higher framerate you start to "feel" even the smallest movements of the car. At least to me those things are very important. Your expectations from racing sims seems to be very high so make sure your gear is at similar level too. EDIT: And even that isn't enough because one has to take care of his tires too because overdriving them will lead into overheat -> unbalanced car -> loss of grip -> excessive wear -> hugely unbalanced car and difficult handling -> frustration.
I think not, because there isn't a comparable car in rF2, FR3.5 maybe you sometimes can do great slides, losing time as that guy, but not as extreme drift... too much downforce and completly different car. With skip Barber or 370 is lot similar to that slides, if you overdrive the car you can do that kind of drifts, in real limit of a fast lap, is harder, obvious, as in real life... we saw lots of crashes due rear lost at limit of the car. I have 60Hz screen and I'm able to drift with 370z, historics, Skip Barber, and catch slides of GT1, Corvette, FR3.5, Marussia, Megane... but with 120Hz should be awesome PS: in less than 24 hours I will show a drift clip with Skip Barbe and Historics. And really nice saves with FR3.5 (tons more of downforce than a Formula Abarth)
I just tried the difference in 60 FPS and 120 FPS in the Corvette. It's crazy! With 120 you can even drift this thing but man it's pure poison. You can catch things you could never with 60. With 60 it's very very hard nearly impossible to drive that thing aggressive and funky. The difference is quite shocking to be honest. I really recommend everybody to watch KeiKei's thread and try it out. http://isiforums.net/f/showthread.php/9888-Input-lag-measurements Very nice job again!
There is nothing wrong with my game or pc I run at 120+ FPS I have no issue doing lap after lap in the cars even at 60FPS with fraps recording. I don't have problem driving the cars and I'm not "struggaling" with them , all i'm doing is pointing out where the physics don't line up with real world cars. Mind you I could certainly drive faster and there is always improvement to be made but I'm fairly confident that's from needing to learn specific aspects of anny given track rather than having an understanding of the basic car controll. If I want to I can throw the cars around like an idiot and make it appear as if I'm drifting like you would a real car , like every example video people keep using as evidence for how you can slide cars around in a controllable way when in reality all they are doing is going out and back into traction with very little control of the car during the slide. I agree with aspects of what you are saying in how real cars obviously sometimes do snap in and out of traction in the end there are so many verables and reasons for a car doing XYZ at any given piont in time I don't think anyone can say definitely in each given situation what is right or wrong all the time. What you can do though is identify that a specific type of car controllability is missing from a simulator and that's what I and some others are drawing attention to with RF2. At some point I will do a full video review of RF2 and cover this aspect properly , in the end its obvious that many people wont believe it regardless of what is presented as evidence. If people enjoy RF2 good on them, I still enjoy some aspects of RF2 and have had some fun races in it. I think it would actually be nice for ISI to release an official test track track with skid pad oval/speed track , skid track , kick pad. That would be awesome in general not only for moders to test cars , but for people to learn basic car control and see where the RF2 limmit is for each car is in perfect situations.
