Gjon, is it too dificult, I mean in technical terms, to release an update (or maybe a "beta beta version"...) based in what we´re sugesting here, meaning that simple and much well known rF1 system without these mod/vmod/packages format? ..or, forgive my ignorance on this subject, is it possible to do an alternative track and mod system similar to rF1 within the current rF2 scenario?
There is no straight forward way of going back to exactly the way it once was, but I think we'll get to similar functionality over time. As a host of races, what specifically is keeping you from hosting a race right now?
Not really, Gjon...I´m not the league´s admin, I just do the tracks tweaks and loading screens, aiw/gdb/.mas editings...but we have a specific topic in our forum just for rF2, and our aliens are also worried about this new format and how would it work in that scenario I talked about in my first post... What we usually have at the start of a season is a huge sync that has to be done via simsync (around 50 minutes for a 1 giga files)with all the vehicules, rfm, the three 1st tracks, the first skins and helmets packs... Then when we have new skins/tracks/drivers/helmets, we just need to do a fast sync (5 minutes or so..) and all this new stuff is installed in a blink of an eye...no mismatches.. ..maybe it would be a great help for the leagues if rF2 mod/vmod/package system should do something similar... But if it´s not possible, maybe time will help us to get used to this new system...
Why indeed do I download a file? Is it not as easy as if the admin create a Vmod this Vmod served just verified that it in many runway and car. ? If checking missing object, then download the missing object.free to download the Vmod (more file for nothing).
NO. Dont change it as far as Online goes. Offline, yes needs tweaking and as suggested, filters. Have you guys tried creating and modifying mods with the new system??? IT IS EASY....simple, under 30 seconds and that includes the hosting part as well. rF1 current system is a JOKE. And if you remember back 5-6 years I bet there where times when just about everyone said "this is too hard", especially considering multiple installs required to play in different leagues, I NEVER played once on a open server as I could never get the content, mismatches are ALL too common (even in an experienced league it STILL happens, even with the same info being copied accross), no way to properly identify identical tracks with modifications etc etc. BUT, people figured ways around it, either learning how to unzip effectively (yes there where a LOT who didnt even now what a zip/rar was and needed teaching), incorporating a 3rd party distribution system (symsinc, modmanager, general installer etc etc) which noone could agree on and many different methods where in use. People got USED to it and therefore now think its easy AND practical.....well practical it is not....WHY? I have at least 5 install of rF1 on my system.....One for a league, several for BETA testing, one for general use, one for backup......why do I need these??? Because there is no EFFECTIVE way to organise changes within rF1....there is in rF2. Now guys, I am all for changes to the system but can we please start offering changes where the reasoning is valid and understandable. My favourite so far is the arguement above (not the first time I have seen it mind you) that my system will be cluttered by all these vMODs and the extra data required for the extra tracks I might need. Right. Firstly....delete them or store them. Secondly....wouldnt a better valid arguement be the excessive bandwidth required to download required content you dont want?? That is something you cannot control, deleting the content once you get it, you can do something about that. So fixing the issue you cannot control would be more viable. Something else I think I understand is that when ISI released their mods linked, I was the first on here going MISTAKE MISTAKE..release as components, people just ignored it. Its good to see Tim and others acknowledging how this has added to the confusion. When the released that diagram before release about the system, my brain went to components and the advantages of this. When ISI released as combined track/car I was devastated and hated it. Thankfully they are starting to reveal the direction it is taking, if this update had not of included the improvements it has now, I would have already uninstalled it One last comment, for those who think the last update has not improved on the ONLINE (note my comments about singleplayer still needed optimising with a simple filter) have you even tried the latest system from mod creation through to hosting and sharing and compared it to the first system released??? If you still think there is no improvement.....well good luck to you in whatever you do as I wont be trying to convince you of anything because the improvement is HUGE. Before it was as though it was rF1 with an extra step and hassle, pointless. NOW its so easy, with less steps compared to rF1 and MASSIVE increase in confidence that the end user will get it working with VERY little help from me, the admin.....BRILLIANT. I hate change for changes sake. This change does bring benifits....big benifits. Initially though, I couldnt see them, but this update has changed that. Yes there are more improvements, already mentioned to and acknowledged by Gjon, which will make it even easier and more awesome and I expect them to come in future BETA updates, which by the way I fully expect to change the past content as it did this time...its BETA, you have to expect that. So complaining about having to change anything from a BETA update is kind of pointless. I was a massive hater of the original system for the extra work it created the league admins, now it is simple. Not only creation and dsitribution of content but also...INSTALLATION!!!! Now....after that... One question for Tim and Gjon which might have been missed above. I noticed the folder installation contains versions in the folders structure below. I assume this carries the changes in those update to allow the orgiinal content still on the PC without change. I also noticed Manifest files which would also contain this information. I also noted when creating the vMods I can select older or newer versions of the mod. Does this mean that backwards compatible content use is planned OR is it already in use....last thing I have to test? So if I have track 1.4 installed but the server needs 1.2 theoritcally I wont need to uninstall my version as the files are already on my system for it. Is that correct? If so the only arguement above, as I have stated, that I find as a truly valid functional arguement for the current release is, are there plans to allow part downloads of the content to minimise our bandwidth usage? ie with the example above, 20 tracks but I only want to use 1, will there be a way to allow the download of that one track and use it or will all 20 still be required to be on the system? I can understand some of the concerns, especially the need for track/car seperation in Single Player or more importantly a more convenient use of the All Cars function, I can even understand the concerns of the arguements that I dont agree with, doesnt mean I dont understand them though. But I think most are WANTING rF1 structure with added benifits. Unfortunately, to get those benifits sometimes adaption is needed. The last update showed the way, lets see if ISI continues to light the path.
I have been meaning to check out simsync, but my guess this can now all be done with the current system except for the Non-checking objects like skins and helmets, we havent finished excluding these yet. There are many ways to do this, but it sounds like you do one huge all included mod up front then updates to it down the road, similar to the way we delivered our first mods?
I might not be understanding completely but you dont have to find a file to download in the example you are describing. If you have all the cars and tracks already, just find the race being hosted, use the Get button and after it verifies you have everything you think you do, you join the race. The movie we put out shows this example. Start at 4:35 http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=KjQ_eo2zsl4
In Build85 and below a version that is no longer referenced, meaning no other mod is using it, will be removed. However will probably be changed, trading some space for fewer installation issues. This very issue is one of the things being looked at right. The context of this example is a league hosting a huge 2Gb mod file which has 20 tracks racing each one for 20 weeks. You want to drive in only the third race at Spa. If it was a semi open league, they would probably host that third race as a vmod meaning anyone with Spa (and the correct cars) would be able to join. If it was some private version track, I would guess that during that week they would also want to host the Spa component to attract independent drivers. Of course a league may do this in a different manner that reflects how and who they want to join their races.
LOL...yeh sorry John...rather long winded...a lot to get out there I think the majority of people just need to see it in action. I never expected the BETA version to be perfect, but now I am seeing a direction I am confident and happy with it Before, absolutely too hard to jump in and race, now...not so much...far far easier, and from what has been said in other threads about what is coming and as Gjon has highlighted what is being worked on...will be so much easier than rF1. Example for quick race. rF1 - Everyone on TS/Forum/Point of Contact decideds to run X at Y. - Server Admin uploads file(s) and installs them. - Runs the server - Than posts links to make sure everyone has the same version - Everyone joins and continues on dealing with the inevitable mismatches and install issues as they happen...AND THEY DO HAPPEN. If you have NEVER walked someone though who impatiently wants to play when they have no idea what a ZIP file is...back down now....it aint easy..the walking though part that is when the other person doesnt want to listen. rF2 - presently - Everyone on TS/Forum/Point of Contact decideds to run X at Y. - Server Admin uploads file(s) and installs them including the vMod which took 30 seconds. - Runs the server - Everyone logs on getting the content and vMod from the server (actually sorry, not sure on the content part....I got an error when testing but it worked next time, figuring out why). - Press Install from UI...PLAY So really it becomes easier and more convenient for the end user. Now the admin might have to do a SMALL amount of extra work but for far less hassles later....good trade off for me. I spend a whole lot more time helping and troubleshooting than I do actually racing in rF1......rF2 makes my life WAY easier If they want to run another track...providing everyone has it which is the same as rF1 anyway...you still need it to use it, the server admin can quickly EDIT that existing vMOD (with the new update they can, before not so easy), change the track, reload..people can join again getting the new vMOD from the server.......well actually modified not new but I think you get the idea. vMods in offline will be GREAT for car/track combos you want to run all the time, but presently needs work for quick tests. Here is something though for offline mod. It is already way easier to combine different series with a vMod. Before it used rFm manipulation (dont quote me there, I havent needed to do that for ages) now you just create a vMod, tick the cars you want and tracks...done making it easy to put various mods together quickly and easily. So there are some benifits in Offline at the moment...but more are to come I gather. The new system is a lot better and I fully recommend anyone to try it...trust me when I say I showed some guys on the weekend, beginner computer skills...and even they looked at me like... "but thats easy"..yep, yep it is
Hello Gjon Camaj Therefore it I understood well. Where the track or car is missing what's going on - t - it? I guess I have to download the track or car. This is or it experience, how to find? In fact, I wanted to come to this Server that hosts, is there possibility to download either the source of the server but it is annoying for bandwitch either by a link (if in given the opportunity) that hide the server administrator configures. It is here that this system will be really beneficial for rFactor2. I think this is all we expect. Thank
Yeah... But you forgot about, if league uses more series, and more tracks, admin must create vmod for any combination of car mod and track. Of course he might create single vmod with all cars and all tracks, but it will force any user to download whole content (tens GB of data) even if he want to compete in single race only. I know flaws od rF1 in this area, but rF2 is not better. vMod doesn't guarantee you will be up-to-date in any way. ModMan is almost as easy as rF2 ModManager
Maxym..ok using your example, as I understand it using the CURRENT rF2 system (mind you I think there will be changes but as it stands). So lets expand on this a little bit so i can understand what it is you saying, because I think I am misreading it. Group: Online Racing Group (just a name, sorry if someone is this group...not intentional) Leagues: - F1 ORG - Megane ORG - GT ORG Tracks: - A through to ZZ..who cares...lets say THOUSANDS. Seasons - F1 ORG , Tracks A - G - Megane ORG, Tracks B,C,X,Y - GT ORG, Tracks A,X,Y,Z I have deliberately included overlapping tracks etc etc. The way I see it with the current system is VERY simple and you have choices Choice 1 - release all content required for the season (minus skins and other components as mentioned by ISI as not being incorporated properly yet) in a single download for each individual season. Admin will need to package 3 x Mods including all cars and tracks. Yes clients at this point have to download all data (10's GB...come one man, dont be ridiculous..I am willing to conced maybe 10 TOTAL..not 10's of which implies 20GB +) which will included double ups BUT providing the tracks are the same as they are, that content only gets installed once. Personally i find this system totally useless for your prescribed example. So its a good thing I have another choice here. Choice 2 - Release all content as COMPONENTS and release vMods.... So now people have to download the components seperately (which they already do in rF1) and because its a league you will have them hosted anyway as per rF1. Each week the admin simply uses a MODIFIED vMOD of the original for round 1 which groups one series and one track. This works for several ways, it stops the need for "casual" users to download all tracks, it is just as easy as logging into the server to set the next rotation and theoritically all the League users are already catered for, if not, they can get the track each week via auto download....2 options for the client in this option..... Actually there is Choice 3...put up a vMod with the next upcoming 3 tracks. Really...just as good and an improvement on rF1 because now mismatches will be minimised. And with rF2, use the installer... With rF1 the admin may choose ModMan (great app by the way, used it for ages till a few mods couldnt work due to size), Zip, Exe whatever protocol to send it to and hope the league get it OR be prepared to help those that didnt. Now all the admin has to do is post a walkthrough (copy all downloads to Packages if doing manually....better still just use the download system). So really the Admin has to spend an extra..what 20 seconds (ok lets say 5 minutes for mod creation, upload and install) each week using choice 2....wow..ok...yeh that could hurt. Honestly it really doesnt mean much more work now but the benifits far exceed it. I would be willing to spend 30 minutes extra at the start to save the HOURS after I spend dealing with some of the issues I deal with at my LANs and other leagues...but the good things is..its only 5 minutes. As for your example...to be honest, I wouldnt be catering for drivers who only want 1 race without the effort. The others put in the effort (and if you using 10's of GB that must be roughly 100 tracks for a season) to get ready for. rF2 is better, far better for league management, but admins will have to decide how THEY want to do it.....and we already have options. Clients now only have to learn one system....... I run in an F1 League (own install and plugins required) where mods are distributed via online storage and in ZIP format. I run in an casual league using SCE (own install) where the game has its own Mod Update system (very good mind you). I run an online small league (own install for convenience) and we distribute via our site and ZIP format. I also have been part of leagues (ones I do as well) that have used ModMan and Symsync.... 3-4 different distribution AND installation systems......good thing I actually know what I am doing. rF2 simplifies everything, brings things into more of a standard situation AND there is more to come. The ONLY place it falls over is Offline....as mentioned that is being looked at. I am not trying to tell anyone here they are wrong, as you are right, you could use the system you describe...but there are other ways as well that you might not have considered, just like I might not have either...but so far all "problems" for Online I have a solution OR have asked Gjon directly in this thread and others if it is being considered and addressed. 3 weeks ago...thought rF2 was dead in the water...at least know we can see a direction that offers hope...glorious hope. I really do hope everyone here has actually tried the new system....
Slothman, I have an even simplier solution. Leage admin releases separate tracks as components and a mod as a component. He also installs it on the server. User installs them in rF2. Admin runs the server with mod X and track Y. User tries to join the server, the game checks: A: do I have mod X? B: do I have track Y? If A and B are true, then the server say "Well hello good Sir, come on in and have a good time!". You don't need to create a vMod for every race, you don't need to create a vMod for every three races, well you don't need to create a vMod at all. Simple?
Totally agree and not once have you seen me argue that would not be easier than what you have mentioned BUT...hehe...guessed that was coming. I am assuming there is advantages in areas I dont understand and have not commented on..for example. Does this current system offer any advantages to cheat protection? No freaking clue and an area I am not 100% on...hell not even around 50%. When the skins and other "outside of mods" components are introduced we dont need to keep updating mods?? Dont know till we see it working really. So yeh, in its current state, your statement is indeed correct....but we dont really know what else is coming yet. But you would have to concede that the current systems benifits outweigh its drawbacks in relation to admin management. As I have said before Change for Changes sake...well sux. Change for benifits..more than happy to take. Before last build...nothing, at least this build I can at least see the benifits
Yeah, that;s why I asked a lot of times for benefits and got no single answer. So maybe there is indeed no advantages which might not be provided by other approaches. I think ISI just do experiments, trying different approaches, different solutions and watching what will happened. of course it is possible there are some adv or issues with other solutions I cannot see now. But again - even if I want to get to know about it, I got no explanation from ISI yet.
It will be a shame if a sync tool isn't compatible with rFactor 2. I run a touring car series at the 'Gentlemens Racing Club' and since we started using a syncing system about a year or so ago now and it just makes life so much easier for administration and drivers. Every round of the season if people have submitted a skin or skin update its just added to the database and same goes with the tracks should they need tweaking to our needs. I must admit i havent looked much into the current system used for mods and tracks in rf2. But from what i understand every time there is a update to be released for a mod it has to be packaged up and uploaded; then drivers have to then download it, copy it to the packages folder then open up mod manager and update it. If i got this correctly then it will just add more load onto league administrators if they have to keep packaging up updates every race of a season, weekly races would be a pain for sure.
Simon it's funny that through your description of the way you currently use simsync it pretty much describes how you would use a updateID for rF2. The update system or part of the ID system targets the content you want to replace, example; Textures, GBD ini, AI ini and so on. The difference is you Don't directly interfere with the original authors content. The update can be un-installed or replaced at any time without touching the mod or track itself. You create the updateID and your members download and install. No real difference from you getting the updated files, ini, or what ever you've change, Create a installer for it, Upload it for the members to download and install but now the original content is permanently altered. Remove the altered content now has to be replace by installing back the original content. This is of cause if you want to. The altered track let say track to keep it simple, With the rF2 ID update can be backwards compatible to other server that don't have your modifications just by going to modmanger and un-installing the update. This is the backward compatibility Slothman is on about. As long as the tracks are updated by updateID and not a complete full install there's no reason why it can't be backwards compatible. Ok I know I'm going to get some flak over this but the more I've read and understand this system it's actually starting to make sense. MaXyM; I was much like you in your line of thinking but as I've read through this thread and read yours and others argument against this system, I'm seeing how the system is not that far removed to what your already doing but in reality it's made easier. It's just tick boxes. No file from here, Another from there, Make a installer or just put them in a rar and hope all the (As Slothman would put it) all the dump asses get it installed correctly. It takes that element out of the equation. Slothman; There is a down side to this. You mentioned you spent to much time helping others out at the LAN's you have. At those LAN's some people turned up and don't even have the mods, tracks or even in some cases didn't have rFactor installed! So really as far as rest of us are concerned the longer it takes these people to join the server and become a mobile chicane the better! It's just unfortunate your the one they call on all the time for help.
I did a new test 5 minutes ago Consequence unfortunately as expected: I want to join a online race with 1960 WCR on Full Loop. The needed vmod by clicking "Get Mod" Effekt -> Mod could not be installed Reason -> I have to install 5 additional tracks, just to join one race, with available car and track Thats exact 1 of those things i dont like in this sytem und i dont want to forced to!!!
Right now the dedicated server hosts the Virtual Mod, typically a very small file with just a description of the race event. The person who made the mod could also include some (updates) or all of the content (car/tracks) but yes, this could be a bandwidth problem for any dedicated server. Our plan is to allow this download to be redirected to a different server, one suitable for this and that doesnt interfere with the hosting of the race.
+1 Yeah this is a problem. What was mentioned before to was the Maserati Trofeo mod. When it first came out it was linked to all the tracks available at the time. I didn't want the tracks so I didn't bother with the mod either. Similar thing here. It was change or you were given the option to get it as a rFcmp but now rF2 is updated the mods don't work anymore. It may be updated by now. Don't know what the answer to that is because the servers do like to have more then two or three tracks in their rotation. It seems you may need to have every track that gets released just to be sure you can ever get on a server at all. This is going to be a constant issue with multiple tracks Vmods. With new tracks and/or updates there will nearly always be one you don't have.
