Freedom of will

Discussion in 'Wish Lists' started by Luiz De Boni, Jun 1, 2012.

  1. Denstjiro

    Denstjiro Registered

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    Thx to Slothman and Thugg for keeping it real, you guys seem to make allot of sense :)

    Diavolo's response is in my mind the core of the this all. i've been monitoring this thread with great concerns but after 5 pages of bickering it seems to me the biggest problem (for online racing) is the need to attach tracks to vmods.

    Imo this is taking away the main target ISI has set: avoiding mismatches and with that make rf2 more user-friendly.
    With rf1 it was not user-friendly because of the mismatches.
    With rf2 it seems forcing (any type of) driver to 'get' tracks they dont even want, will again make it an non-user-friendly invironment.

    Leagues will be able to provide to their members. but how will they be welcoming new users? potential new members?
    Running a server is the main tool for recruitement. Also its the main tool for casual drivers and quick-hosts.
    So entering a server should be a smooth as possible. And if it is smooth this only strengthens the entire RF2 community.

    So a league or any dedicated server has options, make it difficult for casual drivers to enter due to a vmod that connects to an entire season of tracks. Or even 2 or 3 tracks.
    Or provide a vmod with a single track with each event. (this would be the most sensible approach as it is now?)

    In my opinion the whole of the rf2 community, inlcuding ISI, would want to avoid server admins to be allowed to attach multiple tracks to a vmod, or even 1 track.
    We will be having direct downloads via the server lists yes? so whats the problem? if we de-attach vmods and tracks the results will stay the same; no mismatches because a user only getting the vmod and not the track will not be allowed to join.

    So to me it seems the direct-download option is the tool we need to prevent mismatches and help any driver getting the correct files. This would have saved rf1 as well in terms of online racing, a simple 'this is what you need' entry in the server-info.

    An additional concern i have atm is the actual download links to tracks. A public non-leage vmod is released with 6 tracks linked to some free host and after a while 2 of those tracks become offline for some reason. this will kill the vmod for any new users yes?
    So public vmods on sites like rcentral will become redundant even more quickly then rf1 mods and tracks often became redundant. simply because files are removed for whatever reason.
    But then again, why even release a public vmod without attaching it to a specific server. whilst typing this i see that doesn't make sense at all.



    Like SLothman said previously, things have improved massively and i fully disseagree with people stating ISI doesnt listen because they do. (and for those saying 'not gonna use rf2 due to this all', in a beta-invironment no less, i say bye bye! dont bother to come back!)

    It still takes work for admins but that is innevitable and no problem at all and it seems much less work as well. but we have to avoid the possibility for any driver to say 'no thanks' when he is required to download more content then he needs for a single quick-race. 80% of the servers out there, whatever type of server it is, would want people to join with the least amount of issues.
    Allowing leagues to provide vmods+20 tracks is essentialy the same as in RF1 where servers got locked due to mismatches. most servers would again be soley dependant on regulars and members.
    So pls, dont even allow to attach tracks to vmods :)
    Or to take it to the extreme: pls dont allow noob-admins to make it a chore to join their servers :p



    Btw, what about single hosts? quick-servers? how are they going to provide vmods and tracks? they dont have a website or anything so their only option is to have people directly download it from the host. wont this hugely effect lag and fps?
    And how long before people on that server say ' ok enough with the joiners and lag, i'm gonna find me a stable server'
    (this is just guessing on my part of course)


    Lastly, for the offline drivers. is it not possible for ISI to have a button when creating a vmod which says 'Get ALL' ?
    This would create a single vmod which includes ALL mods and ALL tracks currently installed at once and people would only have to do this ever so often.
    I never did anything with offline vmods so correct me if i'm wrong, but such a single push-of-a-button would be fast and easy and maybe even no need for users to place the vmod anywhere because in offline modus rf2 would take care of this on its own for them.
    so click for ALL and race right away.


    Even with all the concerns we might have on the current system i am still very positive ISI will provide us with an end-result that will be balanced and workable for all.
     
  2. Gjon Camaj

    Gjon Camaj Registered

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    This is a good example. My guess is this race was created to host some casual racing but what the dedicated server is saying is we will be running on all six circuits in rotation. To ensure you wont get kicked out of the second race or need to hold a position for you until we get to the track you have, the host requires you have all the content before you join.
     
  3. Denstjiro

    Denstjiro Registered

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    If anything it will remain the same as in rf1. if a server rotates different tracks, in either sim you would have to download the correct version anyways.
    In rf2 you would also get booted to not having the next track but we are now able to re-check the server-info and grab the correct track.
    Heck, we could even have a message in the chat window saying, you have been removed, bla bla, but here is a link to the track'

    tbh i dont see a problem with this. or at the minimum it is much less of an issue vs the vmod+10tracks option.
     
  4. LowRider

    LowRider Registered

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    Ok, lets say 10 Tracks. And there will be lots more in the future.

    Any track with practice and race round about 1hour = 10 hours. I dont have 10hours because i have a job and a family. This mean i want to join the first 3 races. i have the cars and tracks for this 3 races but forced to install 7 tracks more only to have some fun?

    In rf1 this never was a problem. And dont come up again with mismatch etc. because i cant remember if i ever had it before. And even if i get some, i have the choice to download the correct content. But this way i must only download the content i want to use and nothing more.

    With this new system i must also download the missing content, but now much more then i want and need.
     
  5. Luc Devin

    Luc Devin Registered

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    @ Gjon Camaj

    Thank you for the answer.
    It satisfies me :)

    If the future is what we need download and install it in 1 click then the faciité for newcomers, will be simpler.

    Thank
     
  6. MaXyM

    MaXyM Registered

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    Thank you Gjon for your comment

    It is nice sounding idea but still has a serious flaw. It makes people who have no whole content rotating on a server unable to race.
    IMO it is not worth it and brake one of the first requirements for new system: to make more servers available for online racing than in case of rF1.
    Various combinations of different tracks, will make impossible to join number of servers with active tracks which user owns - just because there are other tracks in rotation which are missing. So in a few months, when a lot of tracks and its versions will be on on the fly, a driver will not be able to connect any server. Download feature will not help in this, because no one will be interested to download 1GB stuff to race single event. I'm not talking about time needed for this operation.

    In case of rotating circuits, I would implement it in following way:
    - allow client to connect onto server which runs compatible content right now
    - if client doesn't have installed one of tracks in rotation - inform him about it and about possibility of disconnection when new track will be required to load
    - after track changed, kick drivers who don't have required content.

    I can see nothing wrong in this approach. But it would simplify things a lot.
     
  7. Denstjiro

    Denstjiro Registered

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    I think we agree on this though?

    I dont see the argument, we both dont want to connection between vmond and tracks.
    Maybe my post was not so clear.

    Essentialy i'm saying: we might be better off with the old rf1 system when it concerns tracks (but now massively improved due to server-links) you join a server because you have the track, or you download the track right away and join the server.
    The only difference is vmod, and those are insta-linked, just like the track(s), no problem.

    And no, there would be no mismatch because in rf2 a server links to the correct track anyways. impossible to fail. (unless the server admin adds a dead or wrong link and then we dont get to join)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 6, 2012
  8. Jos

    Jos Registered

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    all i want is that a track is automaticly downloaded to me when i join a server or when a server switches to the next track.

    simple innit...
     
  9. MaXyM

    MaXyM Registered

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    Single track.. hmm 150MB... may be acceptable. But 10 tracks is to much for driver who just want to race a circuit he can see on server index. That's the point.
     
  10. Luc Devin

    Luc Devin Registered

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    What needs to download is the current drive circuit and not all the pack on the server.
    That's why people ask my opinion
     
  11. Slothman

    Slothman Registered

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    Ok...for starters...try the new system.

    - Concentrate on the use of COMPONENTS of mods. ie Components are just what we have now in rF1 with a different name.
    - Now you dont have to package it all up, all you have to do is create a vMOD which outlines WHICH VERSION of the mod you are using.

    As Gjon mentioned above from a query, they are working on backwards compatibility.

    Example for you above....I will use tracks though.

    You create vMOD for content you have already distributed etc (or using the server to distribute content). New version of a track comes out..track ABC 1.0 is what you had, they release track ABC 1.2....now here is the cool thing.

    The install system is placing the CHANGED files for the updates (important there for updates). So your folder structure will have Track ABC and under that two folders (actually dont quote me there I am assuming 1.0 was actually an update as well) 1.0 and 1.2.

    Within each are the changes from the original track.

    Your league decideds to use 1.2. You again, circulate the components how you wish and EDIT the vMod to represent your using 1.2.

    Why? Well from the post Gjon made they are working on the fact that 1.2 and 1.0 of that track are both useable off your system. So if you need 1.0 for another league...your good to while using 1.2 for this league. I am also assuming this because when you create the vMOD you get a CHOICE of the VERSION in the process......starting to think a lot commenting here havnt tried the new system to be honest.

    Honestly, try the new system....it is so much easier and user friendly compared to previous builds. Yes not as easy as not linking and as Maxym mentioned above would be nice to now what else the system can/is doing.

    But I believe one of the guys posted earlier that unlinking is being considered.

    What cracks me up is most of the examples....really, you have the same and more problems in rF1 with other issues. Is the rF2 system perfect...no...but build 85 is a BIG leap forward that does things rF1 wouldnt.

    I think the biggest thing people need to do is forget how ISI released their content. Bring it back to COMPONENTS. Work up from there and it offers a lot more flexibility. Mixing cars is now easier, want F1's with V8's, link the components. The Maserati mod (I think) that released with 6 tracks highlighted this. Just release the components of the car than I can choose which tracks to link with it.

    I think people are also looking at the inflexibility with the current situation with skinning and teams, but as ISI mentioned a long time ago, that is not rolled out yet...as well as sounds etc etc.

    So yes....there is room for improvement, but THANK GOD there is improvement in this build....I am excited again.

    EDIT: SORRY GUYS...this was started at simons post...so most can be ignored as covered above...MY BAD :)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 7, 2012
  12. Slothman

    Slothman Registered

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    On the syncing system. Gjon has said improvements coming including linking to other HTTP for content...so already covered.

    The "extra content" download is a concern, and I can see both sides, harder for casual user also less mismatch issue for admin hosting.....tough call. I prefer the minimise mismatch issue. The HTML information within the vMOD now appears on the server information, maybe point to an area with the info. Maybe admins of these will need to start limiting to 3-4 "standard" tracks for rotation. If their goal is recruiting, extra work will be needed anyway.

    Doug :) WAHOO...I have been working on that for a while.....as for the LAN. I refused to help anyone with the game if it wasnt installed....but people still needed to know networking, file management, zip etc etc. rF2 gets away from all that.

    "Right guys, load rF2, connect to server, download content, hit the UI, find it, install it....RACE".

    The ONLY think I might have to do is show how to connect and the process the first time....and lets face it...if the same person needs to be shown that 3 times.....well..... :) So if I can get away with 1 hour setting people up and 10 minutes for each race...WAY better than the hour or two between each, even after spending hours in preparation.....
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 7, 2012
  13. rer8

    rer8 Registered

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    I think if the missing information was more clearly communicated with appropriate links and names of the missing items I might like this system. I would like to know how to make a vmod or whatever it is called so that I could put what I like together for some friends who like getting together for a Saturday afternoon driving fest. Right now this whole cockamamie idea has a long way to go. But, it is a beta, for modders. So right now, there is limited amount of information available for the multitude (a.k.a. drivers).... so sad....
     
  14. Gridgirl

    Gridgirl Registered

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    Where should be the Advantage for a normal User???


    Needed steps to join a online race:

    rf2

    1. download the needed car(s) and track(s) (for sure much more tracks as i want use)
    2. install this mods
    3. create (or download) the needed vmod (or get it through the get mod button - its also a extra download and install)
    4. find a server that uses exact this vmod (and i'm sure there will be many different vmods with almost same content in future)
    5. join race

    rf1

    1. download the needed cars(s) and track(s) (only this mods i will use)
    2. install this mods
    3. find any server that uses at least one of your installed car(s) / Track(s) (here is a much bigger chance to find one)
    4. join race


    For now we dont have a great selection of tracks and cars, and we can allready see a new vmod creating round, every time sometnig new is released. Have anyone any idea, how much various combinations we will have, if we get houndreds of cars and tracks? Not to mention all the vmods with different ID' but exact same content. Should i install all anywhere available mods, just to make sure i can join online? - NO WAY!!! Not to mention the possible needed countless vmods.

    And all i read is .... ahhhhh thats a benefits because you get no missmatch....
    ... nonsens ... there can't be soooo many missmatches that this sort of solution will be any benefits for me.

    Like i said before, this could look different from a serveradmin side ... but thats the way i see it for now.

    And yes ... i tried the system many times!!! So dont tell me again we should test it first... the 100. experiment make it not better either.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 7, 2012
  15. D.Painter

    D.Painter Registered

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    That's not quite right though.

    rF1; Look through the servers and find mod A on Track B. You have both and can join. You go on and spend the time in practice and have a race. Server now moves on to the next track. You don't have this one you don't follow the server and loose connection.

    rF2; Server list Mod A on track B. You can't join in for this race regardless whether you have mod A and track B. Vmod you get want load without you having all the required content not just the current track running on the server.
     
  16. Slothman

    Slothman Registered

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    Not quite right there....ok ASSUMING the server is set up correctly and auto download (when COMPLETELY fully implemented).

    1. Connect to server which downloads content and vmod (which yes, may contain more tracks as highlighted above)
    2. install the mods via the UI
    3. join race

    Thats it....presently I believe that only works with a CONTENT vMod (as far as testing from a mate, need to confirm myself) but that is the overal goal as outlined by Gjon in another thread.


    IF the server hasnt enabled auto download

    1. find the server and follow the web address (if provided) in the server information
    2. follow the link, download the content and vMod (again, more tracks as outlined)
    3. install the mods
    4. find the server
    5. join race

    Rf1......you ready for this.

    1. find the server and figure out WHERE to get the content......
    2. once you have found the content install it
    3. find the server
    4. realise the track has moved on, go and get the next one....sorry just had to put that in there :)
    5. join race

    Yes yes...I didnt need to put int those points in rF1 but I am ASSUMING you meant open servers.

    League servers, well from a client point of view is pretty much unchanged from rF1 EXCEPT for the Auto download part...you still need to install

    I am not sure how you come to the conclusion that you need to create the vMODS to join the servers. Its up to the server to provide that and the information to obtain it.

    The only time the average user NEEDS to use the vMod creation presently is for single player grouping, which has been recognised as requiring optimising.

    Now as for excessive vMods.....this might sound condescending.....just delete them. They are only 1 MB large, get it again later if you want it.

    For most League users vMods will be minimal, for an Open server user...it might need some user intervention to control. But again, UI management and that can be controlled.

    I THINK I have read your post properly. Correct me if I am wrong though, but it seems to me you where not quite getting the process.

    On the mismatches, from an League Admin point of view AND league participant point of view, they can be minimised. But I have NEVER been part of any league where SOMEONE didnt have some form of mismatch because they missed a patch/skin/notice...whatever.

    Open servers...well lets just say I NEVER got connected with issues. The biggest issue with rF1 is identifying what Series/Tracks are actually running on the server.

    For instance I have seen a server running exactly what I was running, or so I thought. Same Series Name, same track name, but they had made changes to them and kept them the same. I tried connceting many times and gave up, only to find out later they had been modified....no way to know. If you fluke it, great, otherwise you need to know more about that server to get what you want. Most include the name of the "hoster" in the server name, fine, but some dont and use anacronyms which make it harder.

    With vMOD I can include all that infor including web address that shows up in the Server information (well it does now). At least it gives them a chance to provide the info. Not only that I can SEE the vMOD number and compare to what I already have. So there is no way I am going to mix up thinking, why isnt this working, at least I know I dont have it.

    The BIGGEST issue I see for open servers, is the multitude of vMODS using the same content, as you have mentioned.

    But for the end user who doesnt care about the server side, all they have to do is delete/uninstall the vMod after use. ISI are placing a little bit of user responsibility BACK on the user.....and I really dont have a problem with that at all.

    One other benefit, outside of mismatch minimisation, and also goes to some way explaining seperating Car and Tracks.....Ease of customisation.

    vMods consist of components enables this. Now I will try to explain it later.....the actual thought process is developing in my brain over the last hour...I need to get it down and go through it to get it right, but I reckon it goes someway to explaining the reason for linking cars and tracks, to some degree...but it is just starting to form in my head, I need to nut it out first :)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 7, 2012
  17. MarcG

    MarcG Registered

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    just to pick up on this idea, which I think is good in principle, the only major downside is when theres hundreds of tracks which a fair amount have different versions you're gonna need a lot of diskspace. Also if Mods were to be controlled this way somehow then you're gonna need a new HD!
     
  18. Slothman

    Slothman Registered

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    Why a lot of diskspace??

    Updates are done for smaller changes. Completely different versions I can understand needing heaps of disk space but at the moment you have to keep all the full versions in case they want to run different versions??

    EG

    SPA 2007
    SPA EMG
    SPA GTL (I know I know but this is an example)
    SPA 1968
    SPA XXX

    All different versions, but lets say SPA XXX goes to SPA XXX 1.2. Currently we need to keep SPA XXX in case its needed and SPA XXX 1.2 in case its needed elsewhere.

    With the above mentioned for rF2 the only changes will be individual files so a smaller amount over all. Ie it keeps the main data in the main folder, changes go into 1.2 subfolder, which might only be a handful of textures or changes. How can that be larger than now? Go look at the Malaysia Folder. 1.0 239MB, 1.2 is only 16.7MB. In rF1 we would need to keep both "in case" so that is 2 x 240MB...

    However, like most things, it depends on the amount of change in that track. Small changes, update, large changes, release a new version.
     
  19. MarcG

    MarcG Registered

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    exactly is depends on the amount of changes, if small fair enouigh its no problem, but if you get 5 tracks each with 3 different versions and they each have 3 different layouts and they all have big texture changes then you start to get a problem. Again I like the idea I'm just throwing in the "other" scenario as well, best to look at it from all angles dont you agree :)
     
  20. Gjon Camaj

    Gjon Camaj Registered

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    There seems to be this persistent perception that a user has to create, understand, install, find... and otherwise be zen with the v-mod.

    Right now if you want to race, pretend you never heard of a v-mod, go to the matchmaker and pick a race. If the Join button lights up, race. If the Get Mod button lights up, press it. If it determines you can race, press the Join button and race.

    This second step can and probably will be eliminated, its there now just for testing. So from the perspective of a driver looking for race, if I already have the content that the dedicated server will be racing, you just Join the race.
     

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