What we "DON'T" want Studio 397 to do

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by jerrymcc, Sep 23, 2016.

  1. cosimo

    cosimo Registered

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    Why?
     
  2. MarcG

    MarcG Member

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    Yeah I think you're worrying over something that you don't need too, I mean you could have the best tires in the world but everything around that would be bland and horrible if that's all the devs concentrated on. I'd personally prefer things that make the game as immersive as possible, if that means upgrading the (already good enough) Flag Marshalls then great - *IF* and that's a big IF that took time away from another important area then I'm not fussed as that important area would still get completed further down the line. Look at Reiza, they added Aircraft to their circuits that follow the actual route they do in real life...something so little but so cool! Did it take time away from other areas? possibly, maybe the coder needed a break for a bit to do something else, nothing wrong with that.

    All a mute point really as you don't know which coder works on which part of the game, for all you know Studio397 may have a specific coder to work on "non-track related tasks", would that be so bad? :)

    As for the "no to console" argument, I don't buy that either, if a move to console brings in more revenue which means more funds for better licenses for everyone and more employees to work on the game itself then how is that bad? (again a mute point as nowhere has it been said they will/won't do a console part IIRC.)
     
  3. D.Painter

    D.Painter Registered

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    What we "DON'T" want Studio 397 to do

    Haha... That's easy!! "DON'T" use rFactor 1 tyre model.

    I read that interview and it said modelers aren't modding for rF2 because the rF2 tyre model is to HARD!! What a crock of ****!
    If this was all the issue was for modelers working on rF2 maybe they should have said something and those in the community who can build these tyres would create a tyre bank.
    After all a curtain Pirelli, Dunlop, Michelin are the same tyre on what ever car you put it on isn't it? So using that as a excuse is total BS.!

    I agree with this. RentaRacing is a rip.

    But in saying that, We've all who own Asseto Corsa have paid for new content from them. Why not rF2?
    I would if the content was at a better standard then what we're getting now. OK! It's free now so I'm not complaining about it as such. But to pay for it is a different story.

    Bottom line.
    I' along with so many others bought rF2 as a BETA. I paid for the life time so a one off payment. Haven't spent a cent on it that profits ISI sins even though ISI have continued to support and develop rF2 for a number of years.
    We should at least be asked to pay a small fee for new good quality content. If you don't want it just don't buy it. Simple. But a a similar prizing structure to AC, NOT iRacing.
     
  4. pitkin

    pitkin Registered

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    I think giving the option to use the old tire model is a good thing. A modding platform that doesn't get many mods is destined to die, which is what's happened to rf2. Having both tire models co-exist could draw more people in to modding.
    If using the old tire model bring more mod teams in, it may generate new interest in the sim.
    I'll be honest, I love P&G in GTR2 and Historix in RF1, I wouldn't know the difference between old and new model. Okay, I'm not as 'hardcore' as some of the people here, but I can't be the only one who thinks like that.
    If using the old model meant those mods would come to RF2, I'm sure many people would be very happy.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 24, 2016
  5. TheGrunt

    TheGrunt Registered

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    I wish it would be that simple. Racing tires differ a great deal between disciplines and while I don't have concrete evidence how many different types and variations of racing tires are produced, but I believe number is easily in thousands. Wholly another thing is how many different models you need to make good simulation. It is certainly far less, but we are talking about a big number still. And another problem is getting the required data for the tires. Vintage out-of-production tires are their own problem.

    I also had somewhat negative feelings towards older tire model at first, but not anymore. First, it is just an option. Second, rF1 tire model is still good and can be tweaked like Reiza has done. Automobilista is a good example that rF1 based physics do offer still very competent physics engine where tires are just one part of the equation. And rF2 tire model isn't a proof of quality as I have probably driven much more worse mods in rF2 than in AMS or even GSCE. The point is, there is no point having a more refined physics engine if it doesn't produce significantly better results as a thumb rule, no one is producing content for it or it is difficult to notice the improvements on many occasions while driving. Not forgetting that rF1 Pajeka model is still a videly used model in automotive industry, so it is difficult to understand all the negativity towards it.

    Then there is the economics aspect. If rF2 manages to gain more popularity and renewed foothold in sim racing after the Studio397 take over, I believe modding community's effort naturally steers toward the better model. The problem is that there is no such comminity and as there is no community and original content is lacking, there are no players. And again modders are less interested. If "ligter" and "easier" model is available and it brings quality made conversions like CART Extreme to the rF2, I can completely fine accept that game offers older tire model. Especially because it is still a competent one.
     
  6. Lazza

    Lazza Registered

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    I think you nearly forgot your first point during your second, because it sounded like you didn't think the rf2 tyre model is better, which it is. Results are up to modders, same as the rF1 model. But a lot of the arguing against having it as an option seems to be ignoring your first point, which is that it's an option. Nothing is going to get worse by having it as an option, unless you consider mods that use the rF1 tyre worse, but then don't get them. Done.
     
  7. Christopher Elliott

    Christopher Elliott Administrator Staff Member

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    Studio 397 is made up of simracing and racing enthusiasts, just look at what the name implies ;)
    Our intention is to further develop the already solid base of rFactor 2, keeping in mind ideas and feedback from the community. Community is at the core of rF2, so turning it into a "console" game is not our intention! :)
     
  8. D.Painter

    D.Painter Registered

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    If you and all those that are thinking the tyre model is the only issue that's stopping modelers from building content for rF2 your sadly mistaken!
    Going backwards to rF1 model will only see only rF1 content flood rF2 more then it is now. You want see NEW rF2 capable content. Admitting there are some very well made rF1 content. The truth is rF2 in the early days saw many great modeler give up. The groups broke up. These guy's work together for years on mods for F1Challenge, SimBin titles and rF1. Those mod teams are mostly gone.
    Why do I say this?
    Because I was apart of two that have died and one that's doing next to nothing. And it's NOT the tyre model, that I can promise you.

    I for one don't want to go racing went a guy can out brake himself come down under you with all wheels locked up and smoke bellowing off all of them and still out brake you and go around the corner like nothing happened! Screw that! If that's the type of racing you want then why not just use rF1?
     
  9. TheGrunt

    TheGrunt Registered

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    I didn't say that rF2 model isn't better and didn't forget it. I was arguing that better model is of no use, if no one is producing content for it. I think those against the option fear that no one bothers to develop anymore for rF2 model if there is simpler model availaible. IMO this is a big understatement towards modding community, which generally wants to produce as good stuff as possible. That is where I see the economics of popularity playing a big part. If simpler model, which can still produce very good results, help things get rolling, I'm all for it as an option. And as you said, if you don't want to use older model content, then don't.
     
  10. TheGrunt

    TheGrunt Registered

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    Again, rF1 model is an option. If tire model isn't the problem, then rF1 option surely can't hurt, because nobody will use it, right?

    And again, you don't have to install any of those rF1 conversions.
     
  11. jkn87

    jkn87 Registered

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    Welcome back mate
     
  12. T1specialist

    T1specialist Registered

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    Have you actually done any work with tires or are you just attacking modders because you don't like what they are saying? Maybe there are no modders who can just create tire banks out of nothing when even the experienced modding teams seem to be struggling to create tires for their own mods? Maybe you should start creating that tire bank yourself? If it is not that hard...

    Kind of funny how self-contradictory this post is. First he says he doesn't want to pay for online (which he already has done) and then he says he doesn't want rentaracing (which he is sugesting) but he is ok with paid dlc on top of his lifetime subscription which was supposed to cover all that. DLC + paid online = RentaRacing. It is basically raceroom after that. Costs on top of costs. Recipe for success? This would make rf2 costs way above and beyond 100€. Just crazy.

    All fp2 themed sims are suffering badly. Raceroom has gone through bankcruptcy. Simraceway is probably dead too. Rf2 online suffered a lot because online fees were added on top of full priced product. It is clearly a dead end. The success stories are pcars and ac. Full priced game + ongoing development + paid dlc. That's the route automobilista has taken and it is working for them great. The money is clearly in the dlc business. Not in yearly online fees. In fact I think the yearly online fee is one of the main reasons why rf2 is not doing well.

    At least if you want to sell some kind of subscription offer something nice for it. Fast mod downloads, fast skin downloads, special sub sections where people can organize their modding, avatars on forum. But not something that is supposed to be a core feature of racing sim. Online access.
     
  13. D.Painter

    D.Painter Registered

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    Haha... Really!
    Attacking modders! really?
    I am, Or should I say "was" apart of that said same community. Why the hell would you see that I'm attacking them?
    This is so typical! Half read a post and then add your own words to it to make it suit yourself.

    As for your second part.
    NO I want pay iRacing. But I "will" and have paid for AC good quality content. At the end of your post you've agreed that DLC is a good thing commercially for a developer. Again you've miss read or just skimmed my post and make me out to be the bad guy when in the end you agree!!!! Hahaha....
     
  14. Christopher Elliott

    Christopher Elliott Administrator Staff Member

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    Keep it civil please everyone, or I'll have to close this thread.
     
  15. Korva7

    Korva7 Registered

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    physics and cars. That is what matters to me. Physics are very good already and if they manage to furher improve them, that's great.
    Cars then, i hope there will be new cars coming more frequently, as dlc or free, doesn't matter to me. I also would welcome road/supercars.

    Having vr is good, and improving graphics is nice and those things will bring more people on rf2.

    I'm okay with pretty much anything that doesn't make rf2 worse.
     
  16. sg333

    sg333 Registered

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    I hope the overall look/feel of rF2 stays the same; it has a signature look same as rF1 so perhaps with additional features + performance, but keep that look/feel
     
  17. T1specialist

    T1specialist Registered

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    The online subscription is a delicate thing. Adding DLC on top of the current yearly fee will make rf2 even more expensive than it already is while also keeping the roadblocky yearly fees that limit the growth of rf2. Hardcore fans will stay with rf2 no matter happens because they bought lifetime packages. But the more casual players want to come and go. They play more than just one sim and don't simply pay the yearly fee everytime they want to play rf2. Which means they are less likely to buy any DLCs either. And are less interested coming back into rf2. And less likely to join leagues if they need to pay for dlc AND online access.

    Clearly the yearly fee is a bad thing and needs to go. But the cat is already out of the bag. Simply removing the yearly fee from online access may feel bad for those who bought the lifetime sub or who have paid yearly fees. Their investment just goes to 0. So my idea is to change the yearly fee from online access to something else. Give special perks for the yearly fee. I suggested that Online access is given to everybody who bought the game. It should be basic feature of the game. Not a paid option sold as yearly subscription.

    As for those premium perks: Things that could be included in such "premium" subscription are those I already once mentioned: Fast mod downloads, fast skin downloads, special sub sections where people can organize their modding, avatars on forum.

    With 10€ per year you could upload certain amount of data to isi/397 servers ad share that link to distribute your mod. As a premium member you can also upload your skins to isi servers (certain number of slots and megabytes). You are given special individualized sub section on the forum that you can use to manage mod development (you can then invite say 10 other people there and use the isi servers to manage your mod downloads as well). That is basically just something like 3 threads you can then invite other people to read and post. Relatively simple things like that give useful features for people who have paid for it. Kinda like a mix of dropbox, tradingpaints and lfsworld. Without premium account you can still use little bit of those features because financially it makes sense to allow the players to get used to those features so the step to becoming premium member is smaller.

    Not only would such features improve the community by creating a central hub for rf2 but it would also allow people to support isi/397 directly. And it would allow isi/397 to generate constant profits from simple features people can use to improve rf2.

    What you were suggesting is to just add paid dlc on top of everything else. Doing that will keep the problems and will make the game more expensive. It is rentarace and it would not be good.

    I hope the answer I'm getting is worth reading instead of just more "hahas".
     
  18. Will Mazeo

    Will Mazeo Registered

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    Man some people would really rather see rF2 keep its slow death route than be a success. I hope Marcell is not paying attention to any of these, it's getting ridiculous.
     
  19. D.Painter

    D.Painter Registered

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    The yearly subscription of what was it? $10 USD. If you look at all those that bought rF2 when I did have already paid more then I did. 6 years ago. Or near enough. So really if ISI where to drop the yearly sub it would mean people who bought it in the last 2 - 3 years would be given the option to pay the balance to = the life sub. Then for ISI (Studio 397) to earn from rF2 would be through DLC. Plus new players. This would put us all on a even keel.

    Not sure this would be the case at all. I paid for the lifetime and my investment is as, No! More valuable now then it was when I paid it. All lifetime purchasers should see it the same way.

    Simraceway tried this concept. Didn't work. If anything it killed them. Though Simraceway already had a bad rep with the community well before they took over rFactor Central. not 100% on why so I'm not going to guess.

    This is funny considering your standpoint for iRacing. If you use and agree to pay for iRacing Tracks, Cars and on top a monthly sub how can you comment on a $10 USD "yearly" sub and "optional" DLC's that wouldn't add up to one iRacing track!

    Yeah, Well your last post was a joke. At least this one has substance.

    Sorry for the Quotes break down. I know some hate it, Unfortunately it's the only way to answer the different points made in the above post.
     
  20. stonec

    stonec Member

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    This sounds awfully complicated. I don't think it's even technically possible in Steam to suddenly introduce some new balance sum payment for an existing product, as the yearly payment is listed in Steam as a DLC type item. Besides, it would anger users to no ends to suddenly force them to pay a new sum for no reason, especially if they don't even play the game online. Thirdly, it would also anger those with lifetime license when they were promised all content for free.

    The easiest way to approach this would be for Studio 397 to put some effort into the online interface and make it popular again, that way you solve all problems at once without upsetting anyone.
     

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