What we "DON'T" want Studio 397 to do

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by jerrymcc, Sep 23, 2016.

  1. Adrianstealth

    Adrianstealth Registered

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    what ever happens no one should moan, rf2 is getting some major updates including VR ......take my money !!!


    its only really graphical performance optimisation ( dx11 work hopefully will bring this ), VR, wet weather , UI that should be top of the list, anything else is a bonus
     
  2. Christopher Elliott

    Christopher Elliott Administrator Staff Member

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    Please tone it down a bit, thanks.
     
  3. DaVeX

    DaVeX Registered

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    If rf2 will be he next raceroom...how can the lifetime license be managed?
     
  4. Rui Santos

    Rui Santos Registered

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    Yes, i've been there too, helping, like i allways do, until they feel they don't need feedback anymore and start baning critic voices... anyway i never quitted rFactor2, the best (and only) racing simulator, as you can easily found around internet ;)
     
  5. Marc Collins

    Marc Collins Registered

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    I agree, mostly.

    Once rF2 has had its many, many rough edges polished and a normal person can install and use it with a normal effort hopefully the stellar underlying quality will emerge and impress. Once the content has been brought to a consistent level and these other issues addressed, rF2 would be a normal product and not a science experiment.

    Most of us on this forum love sim racing so much, we have been willing to stick with rF2 and ISI despite the appallingly bad user interface and user experience that is rF2. Why? Because if you invest enough time and tedium into rF2 you realize that is has better "bones" than the other sims...even benchmark ones like iRacing. As soon as a normal person can access that without having to spend hours fiddling, particularly on the graphics front since that is unfortunately the "first impression," Studio 397 will be in a position to change-up the offer in terms of money and content and services.

    We know we're not that far away from this point. Had ISI been able to organize itself and provide proper resources, we would already be there today. Years of chaotic development and under-funding led to the mess we have today. Obviously Marcel sees the potential.

    So my point is very simple. Do not continue on the old path of chaos. Instead, follow the exact same path Reiza has turning rF1 into a very impressive sim, despite the older "bones." (Of course, we know Marcel has been integral to Reiza's ability to polish AMS.)

    Once every car feels (FFB) like it came out of the same design shop, we'll be 50% of the way there. Once there is a UI that makes sense to normal people (not that hard if you break free from the old one), the ability to actually race those consistent quality cars will impress. If at that point there are some decently consistent quality tracks to race on (ISI tracks in rF2 are consistently higher quality compared to the cars that are all over the place) that can achieve DX11-level FPS (double current rates if iRacing experience doing the same DX9 to DX11 straight conversion is any indication), we'll be in great shape to build a new enthusiastic community.
     
  6. Domi

    Domi Registered

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    The real focus should be on graphics and (smart) licensing. All the rest can add a bit more or less but they are totally secondary compared to the first ones, especially given how complete the sim is feature-wise.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 26, 2016
  7. Domi

    Domi Registered

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    Can you explain how's Reiza path any better when they are doing basically the same as ISI? (aka releasing random cars and random tracks). The only difference is that they release content at quicker rate. The car's FFB are ok out of the box for me in both games, not sure what are you talking about either. Same with UI, can't see how is AMS UI better. Both are very similar, if anything rF2's one has a slightly better design.
     
  8. David Wright

    David Wright Registered

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    rF2 won't be the next RaceRoom. RaceRoom is a very different concept. With RaceRoom the game is free - you only buy content. Because the game is free and your only income is through selling content, you can't really allow free content from modders, hence there is no modding in RaceRoom.

    With rF2 you buy the game. No one has said this will change. Part of the reason you buy it (and perhaps the main reason) is its sold as a mod platform so moddability is a feature of rF2 and will remain so.

    The closest equivalent would seem to be Assetto Corsa. You pay for the basic game, which is also sold as a mod platform. The developer releases free extra content periodically as well as paid DLC.
     
  9. DaVeX

    DaVeX Registered

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    Sorry I was referring to DLCs, I will try to elaborate.

    If they start selling DLC + DLC from modders we will have a Raceroom sorta content management, you can buy themed packs like URD, Enduracers, etc etc. So my point is...price of sim + price of dlc or price of sim + price of dlc + annual subscription to multiplayer?
    I cant see the light...we shouldn't have to pay for multy in my opinion we have to pay just for content, but are we sure the modder's dlcs will be upgraded as the official content?

    PS: sorry for my poor eng, not my native language I learned it myself....
     
  10. rhamm

    rhamm Registered

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    I have no idea how Studio 397 is going to manage the whole deal. To me it makes no sense unless they're using rFactor 2 as a beta for DX11 and VR before they release an entirely new sim that doesn't have the rFactor 2 beta forever stigma attached to it.
     
  11. Guimengo

    Guimengo Guest

    One idea which would still risk splitting the community with official DLC, could be to convert all lifetime license holders to a credit of 4-5 DLC packs (several cars per pack, maybe tracks) and allow all standard to have multiplayer access but none of the future-signed licenses presented as DLC.
     
  12. Adrianstealth

    Adrianstealth Registered

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    release dx11 VR "rfactor 2 evolved" or "rfactor 2 plus"

    charge current owners for the new evolved/plus part if they want it (obviously no cost for sticking with this dx9 version)
    further build/updates free as now

    make sure main ISI content is also updated, let modders catch up if they choose (to new dx11 version)
    people can still use old version of rf2 for these if they wish -i don't see there being a decent alternative if development is solely going to be dx11 focused, most will move to new version but for those that like to moan its only an option

    there's already loads of good quality cars, less so with tracks
    -so chargeable DLC for high quality tracks (lasered if modern) (maybe with a car or two if available)
    as AC does but maybe tad more expensive (AC very cheap) although I'm not an AC fan,
    paying for quality DLC promotes development of quality DLC

    online charge/lifetime as it is now and current lifetime continues for personal hosting with pals , maybe one off surcharge on current lifetime to transfer to plus dx11 version?

    +maybe an additional fee for access to an organised online series (similar to iracing) & championships
    (no in-built gamey AI championship), seriously an organised head to head online system is sooooooo much better than any built in pretend championship using AI , any charge reduced for dx11 version lifetime holders


    a new licensed car does not really interest me that much, there's a great selection of isi content right now

    sounds complex but all info would easily fit on 1 page, people have to realise that they need to pay if they opt to move to new version, but they'll receive niceties in return, or pay nothing and continue with original version. it will be impossible to keep everyone happy

    PS historics in rf2 are the very best available anywhere & the big historic spa track is a master piece
    if the launch content is a little sparse just promo whats coming (free updated current stuff and DLC new)
    few modders will follow updating too, anticipation is good & quality not quantity is the key in a racing sim especially an iracing based crowd & I'd guess an rf2+ crowd too,

    done this way it would be as good as a rf3,
    a whole new title with the best official content included as base content(from rf2-) and a financial success
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 27, 2016
  13. T1specialist

    T1specialist Registered

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    About using paid mods with steam.

    One thing to understand is that steam is probably not a good option for modders who want to sell their content. Last time when steam tried to encourage selling of mods the modder got a 25% cut of the price of the mod. As a sum that is hilariously bad. You'll get much better deal if you set up your own shop.

    But when you add the fact that most likely there will be tons of people who will upload other people's content, illegal conversions from other games and conversions without permission from the original modder it is very likely it will go very bad very quickly. Let's not forget mods here don't mean just cars and tracks. You have plugins, skins, sounds and textures. Good luck trying to prove your mod is actually your mod. I doubt that will keep people interested making mods for rf2 when 12 other dudes have all your previous work on sale in steam?

    Then you have the modding groups trying to decide how the profits are decided. Expect having some fun on the forums moderating those discussions...

    For steam and people who don't care about whose mod it is actually it might be a good system. But personally I have huge doubts about whether such system is positive. Not only is it a very likely source of constant drama but how well will these modders update their mods when there are changes to the game for example. What happens when a mod is sold as a package with more content promised later on but never delivered? What if the modder is not able to fix an issue because the physics guy, the 3d guy or the sound guy has left? What happens to online racing when everything except the isi base content is suddenly behind paywalls?

    Then you have the possible problems for isi/397. What if someone like f1 once again takes special interest on the items old on steam for rf2 and sends some papers to steam which results wide variety of content being pulled from steam? In worst case rf2 disappears as well. At least momentarily. Not only that but if mods suddenly become income it will create issues for modding as a whole.

    With free mods the way I see it is all very legal. You are not making profits. Just like uploading and making freely available a picture of porsche you drew is legal so is the same with 3d models. Or mods. Sharing your are for free is not illegal. But when there is money I think lots of those rights holders start thinking where is their cut. It will draw unwanted attention into our hobby and in worst case some legit modder is sued for trillion of dollars because then it most likely becomes a piracy lawsuit and all common sense goes out the window...
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 27, 2016
  14. Domi

    Domi Registered

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    The trouble is the same, it doesn't matter if mods are free or payware. Ferrari has sent letters to modders who released cars for free, for instance.

    But having said that, your post is interesting, and if Studio 397 really wants to make this one of their selling points, maybe it would be smart to hire someone to specifically take care of this responsability, working as nexus between modding teams and Studio 397.
     
  15. Wiggin

    Wiggin Registered

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    I'm not sure how many of you were aware of Skyrim and Bethesda attempting to charge for mods on Steam earlier this year but the end result was catastrophic in terms of execution, customer feedback and potential precedent.

    I'm sure many of us chose RF2 for the fact that not everything had a dollar sign attached to it. If Studio 397 were to go and change the pay model and allow for paid mods now, it would send rifts through the community and essential invalidate previous purchases.

    Paid mods is not the way forward and while I agree content creators should get rewarded for their work paid mods is not the way to do it. There are so many issues with a system like that, it's scary to think people are for it.

    If you want paid mods the game needs to be designed from the ground up to support that type of ecosystem, not be changed to it 3-4 years into a games life span.

    We all want new content but let's do it intelligently and in a way that doesn't involve paid mods.

    Sent from my BlackBerry PRIV
     
  16. peterchen

    peterchen Registered

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    I cant see a problem here as long as it is properly moderated.
    Skyrim/Bethesda is another planet.
    Simracing (or sims as a whole) work differently. Nothing to fear of.
    Just look at Xplane, Flightsim X or DCS............
     
  17. T1specialist

    T1specialist Registered

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    Moderating paid mods is seriously difficult though. You have groups of people working together creating something without any kind of ideas who gets what or should the mod even be paid mod. You may have couple of dudes doing insane amounts of work and then have dozen on/off guys and spokespeople and skinners and testers. I've never heard of any mod team having any kind of contracts to even outline who has rights to what.

    So not only is it difficult to say who has a right to upload the mod to steam and put a price on it but it is also almost equally hard to figure out whether the person who uploaded and monetized the mod has ANY kind of link to the people who made the mod. This not only makes it difficult to manage the rights but to get into contact with these people might be impossible. Some of them might have quit sim racing, left or their email addresses simply don't work anymore or whatever. Then you have the issue that even if everybody knows a mod is basically stolen the only people who can make a claim about it is the original creator of that mod. Whoever that is. Simply proving you is you is almost impossible because it is all aliases and nicknames.

    You could even have a known team putting their old mods into steam and get into issues because the people who are in that team now may all be different people that made the mod 5 years ago in that same team.

    Steam paid mods is basically a system that has incredible potential to get really nasty and cause a lot of modders to just ragequit over night simply because the blatant stealing that will occur within minutes.

    I'm not really against modders getting paid but even as a modder myself I'm kind of worried.


    Just out of interest how does xplane, flightsim or dcs handle this kind of thing?
     
  18. Wiggin

    Wiggin Registered

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    I'm sorry, how do you figure ? On both accounts, one being Skyrim being a different planet and how the flight sims work ? Further more how do you propose it be moderated properly ?

    Sent from my Nexus 7
     
  19. peterchen

    peterchen Registered

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    Payment via website as far as I know. Insiders correct me if Im wrong.

    Dont talk this pay-mod-thing down to the ground! Im still the opinion that it can work.
    In the end you have the same problems or circumstances as with non-payed mods. Theres always someone who will complain if the mod is ripped/stolen whatsoever.
    Look at rF1 mods: same deal, just with money.
    Community will be the best judge!

    P.s.: yes Ive changed my mind on that, as I was against payed mods in the beginning! Depends on the quality-level. URD for example is a bad standard in my opinion.

    Edit:
    Skyrim is a game playing by the masses. rF2 is a simulator in a max 100.000 players niche!
    You have to hire someone for moderating and doing research on the mods. Simple as that!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 27, 2016
  20. Wiggin

    Wiggin Registered

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    Both are video games, get off your horse. Player base may be different in size but the overall principal and issues are the same when you're talking about paying for mods. You even say that the issues of ripped content will be there even if there is payed mods, but now you're adding an exchange of money. This should be rectified if money is exchanged.

    People are a lot less forgiving and have much more recourse when you add monetary exchange for goods or services.

    If you really think 1 guy can curate the entire workshop, I'd be hard pressed to believe that feasible.

    On the other side of this though, if there was for instance a 100% licensed NASCAR "pack" with all the tracks and all series done properly with possibly lazer scanned tracks and cars and real data used for $20-$30 you would have my interest.

    My point is if you're going to charge for every tom dick or Harry's mods you're going to turn this into iracing where every piece of content has an additional price tag after we have bought the game. I can only assume many of us are here because ISI doesn't do that.

    Sent from my Nexus 7
     

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